Regarding Seated Liberty Coinage...True or False?

bidask · September 4, 2012 10:28AM

This quote taken from E-Gobrecht (Liberty Seated Coin Club electronic publication) June 2008 issue.

By Jim Gray :

It is my belief the percentage of seated liberty coins in all states of wear, without doctoring or mutilation or “album toning” or environmental damage or repair of any sort after 120-170 years, is less than 10% of the surviving population by date and denomination.

An original, unmessed-with seated liberty coin is a true condition rarity

AngryTurtle · September 4, 2012 10:30AM

I would tend to agree
.

Unknown · September 4, 2012 10:38AM

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MidLifeCrisis · September 4, 2012 10:51AM

Sounds plausible. Nobody knows, of course.

I think his point was that a lot of liberty seated coins have been messed with, so be extra careful. That's worth remembering if you collect them.

coinkat · September 4, 2012 10:52AM

sounds about right

DIMEMAN · September 4, 2012 10:53AM

You could probably say the same thing about any coins of that age.

Coinosaurus · September 4, 2012 10:56AM

It depends what you call "original." Depending how picky you are about that, it's even less than 10%.

The other thing is about original coins is that a lot of them are dark. I appreciate the surfaces but I don't like the color.

And there are some very nice coins out there that are cleaned and retoned.

Originality is a big plus but not the whole story.

Unknown · September 4, 2012 11:10AM

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breakdown · September 4, 2012 11:14AM

120-175 years is a long time for a coin to survive without at least one pair of hands deciding to do something to the surfaces, particularly when cleaning and other practices were more acceptable in other numismatic eras.

LindeDad · September 4, 2012 11:25AM

<< I think his point was that a lot of liberty seated coins have been messed with, so be extra careful. That's worth remembering if you collect them. >>

So I guess were both in the more likely TRUE camp.

MrHalfDime · September 4, 2012 11:55AM

Overall I guess I would tend to agree with Jim Gray's assessment. But I was a bit surprised to see "album toning" in the same category as "doctoring or mutilation ... or environmental damage or repair of any sort". I think most collectors would not associate album toning with the the more aggressive and intentional practices of doctoring, mutilation, and repair. For many/most collectors of the series, album toning is considered an asset, not a liability.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 4, 2012 12:58PM

I would disagree. There is a huge quantity of seated dimes, quarters and halves in the Fair to Good range that remain very original. However, this stuff usually gets ignored because it's not collector grade. I think this would increase the number of original material to way over 10%.

astrorat · September 4, 2012 1:36PM

For twenty-cent pieces, I think the number is closer to 5% or less based on my definition of original. I consider many of the currently certified circulated pieces to not be original, but market acceptable.

bestclser1 · September 4, 2012 2:36PM

Absolutely.Looking foward to my Long Beach vacation,plenty coins for show and tell.

shish · September 4, 2012 6:05PM

In my area of expertise (Seated Dollars) I would agree with Jim Gray's assessment.

But I was a bit surprised to see "album toning" in the same category as "doctoring or mutilation ... or environmental damage or repair of any sort". I think most collectors do not associate album toning with the the more aggressive and intentional practices of doctoring, mutilation, and repair. For many/most collectors of the series, album toning is considered an asset, not a liability.

PerryHall · September 4, 2012 8:09PM

<< You could probably say the same thing about any coins of that age. >>

PerryHall · September 4, 2012 8:18PM

I think originality is sometimes overrated. Many original coins from this era have dark ugly toning. Many of these so called original coins aren't as original as their owners think. I'd rather own a lightly dipped coin with attractive secondary album toning. Eye appeal is important to me and to most collectors.

crypto79 · September 4, 2012 10:03PM

<< I think originality is sometimes overrated. Many original coins from this era have dark ugly toning. Many of these so called original coins aren't as original as their owners think. I'd rather own a lightly dipped coin with attractive secondary album toning. Eye appeal is important to me and to most collectors. >>

While eye appeal is important to me, since it is so rare and subjective I tend to suck it up and go with originality if I can find it and compromise with dark.

TomB · September 4, 2012 11:09PM

If one ignores low grade pieces that tend to be hoarded more as exotic bulk silver than as collectible coins then the percentage is likely within the ballpark. The "album toning" comment, in my opinion, may very well refer to pieces with secondary toning that quite a few folks drool over, but obtained the color from a quick dip and then album placement.

BillJones · September 5, 2012 12:05AM

When he includes "album toning" in the mix, which to my mind would include "envelope toning" he makes a valid point. BUT I don't think that every Liberty Seated coin that has had something done to it over that last 120 + years is "ugly" or "undesirable," and some of the totally original coins are "ugly" and "undesirable."

rhedden · September 5, 2012 6:04AM

I almost agree with this statement. Let's take the Seated quarters for example. I would say the percentage of common dates like 1853 Arrows or 1858-P that is "original" is much higher than 10%, because many of these were considered junk during the mid 1900s when people were busy scrubbing up their coins. For semi-key dates like 1859-S or 1872-CC and key dates like 1870-CC, virtually all have been cleaned or altered. These were mostly sitting in collections by 1950 or so, and the temptation to clean or improve them was high due to their high value.

VanHalen · September 5, 2012 6:22AM

If he would have said 20%, I would have agreed. 10%? That seems too low.

Mowgli · September 5, 2012 7:02AM

When I collected a date set of seated dimes, quarters and halves they usually were purchased at big shows from well known seated dealers - Dick Osburn, Larry Briggs etc. Most of what they had in XF (my target grade) was cleaned, dipped etc. It looked like an impossible task to do a set without some cleaned coins. My guess is that lower grade coins look original because all the sins of the past have been worn off?? I dread the day I sell these since they will not slab but hope that the rarity of these coins will interest some people.

coinlieutenant · September 5, 2012 8:06AM

I would tend to agree with that statement. Seated coins are so hard to find truly original. I am ultra picky with my coin selection, and if I excluded secondary toning, I would buy nearly nothing. Secondary toning can be attractive in some instances. Posted below are some that fall into the original category and some that fall into the secondary toning. All are happy members of the collection, although the virgin original coins are more prized.

Would agree with Rhedden that the more common dates are probably available in a higher percentage and would add that the larger denominations, especially seated dollars, are available at about the 5% or lower range...

Also, I think that seated exists in smaller percentages in original condition as a whole than bust coinage, despite the disparity in age. Rarity could be the reason why?

ebaybuyer · September 5, 2012 2:27PM

jim handled many hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of seated coins when he was building his collection (back when they sold for a fraction of what they do today) i am inclined to believe he knows what he is talking about. my 1846 dime in another post is a prime example, original tarnish most often is not very attractive, and is usually stripped off in favor of a "more appealing" look which unfortunately ruins an original coin.

michiganboy · September 6, 2012 1:46AM

<< My guess is that lower grade coins look original because all the sins of the past have been worn off?? . >>

This is what I was thinking, and agree with the 10% average being original. Lots of coins have been properly dipped with non the wiser as well.

Edited to add I meant dipped and retoned leaving someone to believe the toning is original.

roadrunner · September 6, 2012 7:40AM

I pretty much agree with Jim and most of what everyone else has added in.

I would also say that the % decreases for the larger denominations. I seem to see a lot more "virgin" common date half dimes and dimes than I do halves and dollars.
Then minted more of the smaller denominations as well.

Certainly the commonest dates are almost always the ones you see in nice orig condition (ie 1857 half dimes, dimes, quarters and halves for example). And those are still
common enough in untouched condition that there are still plenty to go around. Untouched 1857 seated dollars? Good luck. But put an "O" mint mark on the back of those
1857 half dimes to halves and the task just got a lot, lot harder, esp. with the quarter and half.

renomedphys · September 6, 2012 8:42AM

Original silver is very dark, and wholly unappreciated by the collecting society, save for a few purists.

I bought what I would consider to be an original 1913 Barber Half. The surfaces scream 64/65 or better. The grade read 62 from NGC. Still thinking about dipping that coin. Good thing I don't know how.

roadrunner · September 6, 2012 9:36AM

I think the circ seated collectors value dark surface originality much more than those who venture into mint state seated coinage. TPTB have determined that darker
orig surface MS seated coinage is not as desireable as blast white. Swim against the tide at your own peril.

bidask · September 6, 2012 9:48AM

<< I think the circ seated collectors value dark surface originality much more than those who venture into mint state seated coinage. TPTB have determined that darker
orig surface MS seated coinage is not as desireable as blast white. Swim against the tide at your own peril. >>

What is TPTB..?

Coinosaurus · September 6, 2012 11:10AM

<< Original silver is very dark, and wholly unappreciated by the collecting society, save for a few purists.

I bought what I would consider to be an original 1913 Barber Half. The surfaces scream 64/65 or better. The grade read 62 from NGC. Still thinking about dipping that coin. Good thing I don't know how. >>

It's pretty easy, there is probably a vid on youtube to help

I've never dipped a "classic" coin myself (only some moderns) but in some limited cases I do believe it should be done.

ebaybuyer · September 6, 2012 11:54AM

i for one prefer a natural dark toned coin to a dipped unnaturally bright one... slabbed or not

breakdown · September 6, 2012 12:19PM

Tptb = The powers that be.

And man, there have been some great threads recently, including this one. Taking notes...

Regarding Seated Liberty Coinage...True or False?

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