Interesting Article on Dealers/Collectors and Coin Shows

ThePennyLady · August 28, 2012 2:49AM

Viewpoint: Treat Dealers as Valued Customers

This is an interesting article that recently appeared in Numismatic News written by Carl Schwenker (who works tirelessly to help make the Houston Money Show in December a successful show for both dealers and collectors). I'm sure it will evoke some "strong" views on both sides (collector/dealer) concerning the issue of dealers leaving a show early, but I think Carl's article helps give everyone a better perspective on this issue.

I think it's a good read, from whichever side of the fence you're on.

Zoins · August 28, 2012 3:01AM

Is the simple solution to just not go on the last day? This way both dealers and collectors will be happy.

BTW, if the dealers are the customers, then are the collectors the product?

AngryTurtle · August 28, 2012 3:03AM

Some good points. I have never been to the Houston show, but I have been to the Baltimore and FUN shows on Sunday, and I would not describe it as "half full of Retail Dealers" , I would call it a vast wasteland not worth visiting ( except Julian, of course!). No matter whose customer you are serving it does not benefit the hobby to give this impression to visitors. Sunday is most likely to draw someone with casual interest who does not know that this day will have light coverage by dealers. My opinion is that the show should set hours that (retail) dealers will attend, and then do what they can to enforce that. If that means ending the show midday Saturday, then do that.

Dentuck · August 28, 2012 3:30AM

This is an interesting statement:

"The Houston show has used a 20-to- 1 ratio, meaning that their attendance goal is 20 people (serious collectors, not tire kickers) through the door for each dealer in the bourse. For a 250-booth show, our attendance goal is approximately 5,000 adults."

That math implies that 100% of the 5,000 adults who walk through the door are "serious collectors" and 0% are "tire kickers."

pennyannie · August 28, 2012 3:44AM

In the past dealers were packing up by the isles by 2 pm on saturday. I have not been in 3 years because of this. I am not really blaming the dealers cause i have a tendency to pack it in and leave when i feel i am done but it is a 5 hour each way drive for me and i am not going to leave the house at 4 am to arrive by 9am.

Zoins · August 28, 2012 3:47AM

<< This is an interesting statement:

"The Houston show has used a 20-to- 1 ratio, meaning that their attendance goal is 20 people (serious collectors, not tire kickers) through the door for each dealer in the bourse. For a 250-booth show, our attendance goal is approximately 5,000 adults."

That math implies that 100% of the 5,000 adults who walk through the door are "serious collectors" and 0% are "tire kickers." >>

He could have simply meant "5,000 (serious collectors) adults" which would be inline with the "20 people (serious collectors)" earlier.

Zoins · August 28, 2012 3:49AM

<< In the past dealers were packing up by the isles by 2 pm on saturday. I have not been in 3 years because of this. I am not really blaming the dealers cause i have a tendency to pack it in and leave when i feel i am done but it is a 5 hour each way drive for me and i am not going to leave the house at 4 am to arrive by 9am. >>

My guess is that this would be less of an issue for some if it was communicated to visitors before they arrived on Sat afternoon or Sunday.

Perhaps there could be an iPhone / Android app or website that gave updates on what percentage of dealers and which ones were left, sort of like traffic updates. This way collectors could make an informed decision on whether to go or not.

RebelRon · August 28, 2012 4:08AM

Wow!
I never realized all the good timing that must be considered when planning for a show!
I gotta respect you folks!

123cents · August 28, 2012 4:15AM

Great article!

COALPORTER · August 28, 2012 4:17AM

<< Is the simple solution to just not go on the last day? This way both dealers and collectors will be happy.

BTW, if the dealers are the customers, then are the collectors the product? >>

That is what happened at the Long Beach show. No one would go on the last
day (Sunday), so they got rid of it, AND now no one goes on the last day (Saturday)!

crypto79 · August 28, 2012 4:23AM

I think that shows should have a penalty for leaving early but allow dealers to sign out to avoid it the prior day. If a table opens up there should be a stand by list of vest pocket dealers given free range to set up for a very small fee. This way everybody wins

Zoins · August 28, 2012 4:24AM

<< 

<< Is the simple solution to just not go on the last day? This way both dealers and collectors will be happy.

BTW, if the dealers are the customers, then are the collectors the product? >>

That is what happened at the Long Beach show. No one would go on the last
day (Sunday), so they got rid of it, AND now no one goes on the last day (Saturday)! >>

Perhaps all the business is getting concluded earlier? If the dealers don't need to be around longer, does it make sense to make the show even shorter?

OTOH, if people new to the hobby are the ones showing up on Sat and Sun, is there any need to cater to them? Perhaps new collectors are not as attractive to the dealers?

crypto79's idea is a good compromise which would allow dealers to leave early, vest pocket dealers an option to setup, the show to stay open longer, and collectors to have a less empty show.

littlebear · August 28, 2012 4:33AM

<< I think that shows should have a penalty for leaving early but allow dealers to sign out to avoid it the prior day. If a table opens up there should be a stand by list of vest pocket dealers given free range to set up for a very small fee. This way everybody wins >>

Good idea. Perhaps this would make the show a "two show," with new dealers and new material the last day. Seems to be a simple solution, and one that could develop more new dealers for the show. As far as collectors coming in the last two hours of a show, and then complaining, I have no sympathy.

Larry L.

Edited to add: The article raised some excellent points.

Timbuk3 · August 28, 2012 5:12AM

Interesting reading !!!

camlov2 · August 28, 2012 5:21AM

<< If a table opens up there should be a stand by list of vest pocket dealers given free range to set up for a very small fee. This way everybody wins >>

I like this idea. I wonder how it would change attendance... More people would likely attend the last day and then the dealers would start sticking around longer...

mrpotatoheadd · August 28, 2012 5:28AM

"Most collectors don’t realize that there are two types of dealers at a show. One is the wholesale dealer who is at the show to buy and sell among the dealers at the show. These dealers spend the first day finding out what every other dealer has new in their inventory. The other type of dealer at a show is the retail dealer who depends on the collectors and public coming through the show door."

Failure to recognize this reality will continue to lead to frustration for everybody involved. If dealers who are not interested in retail selling are allowed to set up at a show, it would seem that the show promoter is responsible for notifying retail customers of the fact.

Zoins · August 28, 2012 5:41AM

<< "Most collectors don’t realize that there are two types of dealers at a show. One is the wholesale dealer who is at the show to buy and sell among the dealers at the show. These dealers spend the first day finding out what every other dealer has new in their inventory. The other type of dealer at a show is the retail dealer who depends on the collectors and public coming through the show door."

Failure to recognize this reality will continue to lead to frustration for everybody involved. If dealers who are not interested in retail selling are allowed to set up at a show, it would seem that the show promoter is responsible for notifying retail customers of the fact. >>

Perhaps there could be a way of designating dealers as wholesale or retail that would be easy for people to delineate?

TomB · August 28, 2012 5:48AM

I think it is a very good article.

mrpotatoheadd · August 28, 2012 5:49AM

<< Perhaps there could be a way of designating dealers as wholesale or retail that would be easy for people to delineate? >>

I don't think the problem is physically identifying them- it's letting retail customers know before they even walk in the door that not every dealer who sets up at a show is there to do retail business.

TomB · August 28, 2012 5:53AM

I deal both wholesale and retail, but most of my business at a show is wholesale. In my opinion and experience, knowledgeable and serious collectors make a stronger effort to attend shows earlier so that they not only see more individual coins, but so that they can also interact with those dealers who have a considerable wholesale bent. Less experienced, or more casual, collectors do not generally carry this philosophy and also are not the clients that strong wholesale dealers interact with as much. Therefore, many of the dealers that casual collectors miss on the last days of a show are dealers with whom they likely would have had no interaction with in the first place.

LochNESS · August 28, 2012 5:58AM

At the BRNA show ten days ago (fairly recent) I arrived 9AM and boursed until 2PM, at which time ~10 dealers were already standing by the valet packed and loading. License plates indicated 2-8 hour drives. Most dealers were still inside dealing. The height of attendence was definitely around 10AM, there was actually a line at the registration table ~30 people long. There were still people coming in at 2PM but more going out.

RichieURich · August 28, 2012 12:43PM

When dealers had to stay at the Baltimore show on Sundays, we kept track of our sales and our costs. Out of many Sundays, there was only one time we had over $200 in sales. Obviously, staying that extra day and incurring an extra night of hotel expenses to sell under $200, just was not worth it.

Fortunately, Baltimore went to optional attendance on Sunday for dealers.

Justacommeman · August 28, 2012 1:06PM

<< Great article! >>

+1

MJ

Kove · August 28, 2012 1:16PM

Many good points. Thanks for posting, Charmy, as I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

BryceM · August 28, 2012 1:44PM

This is a well-written article that brings up some legitimate points. As a longtime casual collector who has become more serious lately, it always amazes me that there is such a frenzy of dealer-to-dealer trading. It's almost as if the industry could go happily along for many months or years even if collectors completely disappeared from the scene. The "end consumer" must have an impact at some point doesn't he?

There is probably no perfect solution to the situation. There are two types of dealers and two (or three) types of people walking around looking at inventory. The one point I'd make is that as a collector, I'm much more likely to be able to attend a show on Saturday or Sunday than during the week. I live in an area where attending a show means a plane ride and attending during "prime time" means time away from work. It might be nice if there were a few shows that were Saturday to Tuesday, instead of the usual Thursday to Sunday pattern that has been established.

The Vegas PCGS show in particualar strikes me as very dealer-to-dealer oriented. As an individual collector I felt like the odd man out in the room, even though it's one of the easier shows for me to travel to.

PerryHall · August 28, 2012 4:24PM

<< When dealers had to stay at the Baltimore show on Sundays, we kept track of our sales and our costs. Out of many Sundays, there was only one time we had over $200 in sales. Obviously, staying that extra day and incurring an extra night of hotel expenses to sell under $200, just was not worth it.

Fortunately, Baltimore went to optional attendance on Sunday for dealers. >>

I have suggested this before---let small local dealers and collectors set up on Sundays on a first come-first served basis for a small token fee of say $50 per table. I'll bet a lot of the bigger dealers will stick around to cherry pick these smaller dealers and attendance will greatly increase. And best of all, there won't be a sea of empty tables. I know I would attend on Sunday under this scenario.

jhdfla · August 28, 2012 7:48PM

"The collectors or attendees who complain usually do so late on the last day of the show. For their convenience, they have made the decision to attend at that time on that day. Why shouldn’t the dealers enjoy the same liberty as to when they come or go?"

So true. Most of the serious collectors I know make every effort possible to attend early in the show, especially at the larger shows. Everyone, dealers and collectors included are pretty much tapped out by the end of a three or four day show. For example, the FUN show in January is pretty much a joke on Sunday when the jewelry dealers proliferate and the coin dealers are greatly diminished. The only reason some ppl stay is so they get their spot for next year, it's largely a waste of time.

JJM · August 28, 2012 10:21PM

Is the simple solution to just not go on the last day?

wouldnt that make the day before the last day essentially ????

BillJones · August 28, 2012 11:16PM

This is a really good article, and I think that collectors should digest when he has to say here and take it heart. The lot of the successful coin dealer is not easy. I know that having been on both sides of the table. It is really tough and expensive to have to stay the full length of a Thursday to Sunday show when you go in on Sunday and do little or no business. Sunday is usually a waste of time and money. One solution is the let small and amateur dealer set up for free on Sunday. That can add some spice to otherwise boring day.

I have to say that the one group of dealers who get on my nerves are the ones who leave on the Friday afternoon of a Thursday to Sunday show. Those guys DO irritate me, but I'd still leave whatever penalties might be associated with doing that up to the show promoters.

joebb21 · August 28, 2012 11:20PM

great article!

And great poing about east coast dealers and traveling west (and vise versa)

For an east coast dealer going to the LB show and staying past 1 pm on saturday means that they would have to stay over another night t avoid coming in very late at night.

Remember that its 7+ hours to get from the west coast to east coast.

kranky · August 28, 2012 11:51PM

I met Carl at a ANA Summer Seminar when we were partnered in the same class for a week. He's a good guy and a smart businessman. I'm not surprised when I hear people say that his show is one of the best run operations.

It makes a lot of sense if you are the show organizer to consider the dealers as your customers. They are paying the costs and without them there is no show. And part of being a good show organizer is working to bring in the public so your customers have customers of their own. So there are two stakeholder groups that need to be addressed. When deciding whether to do a show, some dealers decide solely on expected financial return; and some dealers will also take into account whether they like being there. So the organizer will want to make dealers feel good about attending.

As a collector, I like to see every table filled so I have a variety of places to check out. I am sympathetic to those who, for whatever reason, can't get to a show before the tail end. But for 3 day shows that run through Sunday it's simply not practical to require dealers to stay to the end. It will only result in some of them not coming at all in the future, and what good is that? I would rather have someone set up 2 out of 3 days than no days at all.

blu62vette · August 28, 2012 11:58PM

<< great article!

And great poing about east coast dealers and traveling west (and vise versa)

For an east coast dealer going to the LB show and staying past 1 pm on saturday means that they would have to stay over another night t avoid coming in very late at night.

Remember that its 7+ hours to get from the west coast to east coast. >>

For the West coasters going East there is a time in which there are just no more flights home and that results in another night. It was easier a few years ago but so many flights have been cut it is hard to find the right flight. My Baltimore trip this time is very different. I used to take a great flight there, it is gone. Now I have to go a day early.

Kove · August 29, 2012 12:54AM

<< For the West coasters going East there is a time in which there are just no more flights home and that results in another night. It was easier a few years ago but so many flights have been cut it is hard to find the right flight. My Baltimore trip this time is very different. I used to take a great flight there, it is gone. Now I have to go a day early. >>

That's a good point, Todd. The airlines are taking care of some of this problem for everyone. I used to be able to fly out of Baltimore at 6pm on Saturday and get home that night due to gaining time flying west. Now, due to flight cutbacks, there are no more Saturday evening flights that work, and I'll be staying until Sunday. Add in the statement about eastbound flights on the way there, and Baltimore is now a Tuesday-Sunday affair.

telephoto1 · August 29, 2012 1:15AM

Good article. I've always been a proponent of optional Sunday attendance.
One of the most salient sentences imo:
"The collectors or attendees who complain usually do so late on the last day of the show. For their convenience, they have made the decision to attend at that time on that day. Why shouldn’t the dealers enjoy the same liberty as to when they come or go?"

pruebas · August 29, 2012 1:55AM

<< 

<< This is an interesting statement:

"The Houston show has used a 20-to- 1 ratio, meaning that their attendance goal is 20 people (serious collectors, not tire kickers) through the door for each dealer in the bourse. For a 250-booth show, our attendance goal is approximately 5,000 adults."

That math implies that 100% of the 5,000 adults who walk through the door are "serious collectors" and 0% are "tire kickers." >>

He could have simply meant "5,000 (serious collectors) adults" which would be inline with the "20 people (serious collectors)" earlier. >>

And occasionally, serious collectors become tire kickers if the dealers have nothing interesting for sale.

rkfish · August 29, 2012 4:38AM

Great article and let me say that I think Carl has hit the nail on the head! When you have 3 to 500 dealers in the room you simply can't expect EVEERYONE to stay from the beginning hour until the ending hour. I know some shows I do that there are dealers who can't/don't set up until the show has started as their business in the shop keeps them there as long as they possibly can.....and as noted in the article some dealers simply can't stay on Sunday even if they wanted to but yet everyone thinks they should be penalized.....not good for the show or the promoter in my opinion.

Carl is a very smart businessman and collector that understands the hobby, other collectors and dealers.......takes the three and turns that into one of my favorite shows of the year! Good job Carl and GREAT ARTICLE!

stman · August 29, 2012 5:08AM

I'm not a dealer, and most of the response heres seem to be mostly dealers, but here it goes. We all know Sundays don't work for shows. Dealers blame collectors for not showing up. Collectors blame dealers for not staying so why bother. No use in pointing fingers and once again to make it a us against them. Dealers are certainly entitled to leave when they please. Myself, I don't travel to shows anymore and mainly because I can't be there early in the show all the time. I just won't pay many of the expense, and go through the aggravation that go along with it to justify it. It's all about choices folks.

I will say it gets annoying that I hear all the time "serious collectors will be there early in the show." We have enough folks in this world defining ones character.
Keep in mind the other side of the coin is perhaps some of these "serious collectors" can't be there early because they have jobs, a business to run and they need to keep this up to continue to be the coveted "serious collector." One more thing, when they mainly stopped Sunday shows, then the dealers would leave Saturday early or Friday. That's what they choose to do, and I choose to not attend. Very simple.

telephoto1 · August 29, 2012 9:59AM

<< I'm not a dealer, and most of the response heres seem to be mostly dealers, but here it goes. We all know Sundays don't work for shows. Dealers blame collectors for not showing up. Collectors blame dealers for not staying so why bother. No use in pointing fingers and once again to make it a us against them. Dealers are certainly entitled to leave when they please. Myself, I don't travel to shows anymore and mainly because I can't be there early in the show all the time. I just won't pay many of the expense, and go through the aggravation that go along with it to justify it. It's all about choices folks.

I will say it gets annoying that I hear all the time "serious collectors will be there early in the show." We have enough folks in this world defining ones character.
Keep in mind the other side of the coin is perhaps some of these "serious collectors" can't be there early because they have jobs, a business to run and they need to keep this up to continue to be the coveted "serious collector." One more thing, when they mainly stopped Sunday shows, then the dealers would leave Saturday early or Friday. That's what they choose to do, and I choose to not attend. Very simple. >>

stman...yes, everyone knows Sundays don't work... but by the same token, everyone also knows that the first day of a show offers the best selection.
And let's be honest...if a collector wants to go to a show badly enough, he can usually find a way. It's not like collectors don't have ample advance notice of shows well in advance via websites, trade publications, show calendars, etc., enabling most of them to plan ahead far enough to make time to hit the show early if it's that important to them. I even know people that take vacation or flex days to hit major shows. Like you so aptly put it, it's all about choices. So...If someone chooses to come late, should every single dealer be forced to stick around and for many if not most, technically lose money Sunday?

Also, people tend to forget that although as you stated, collectors "have jobs, a business to run..", etc....guess what? So do we... and we also have lives outside of numismatics that we would like to be able to make time for on occasion. Many storefront coin dealers are open all week, then do a show all weekend, essentially working 7 days a week, and during heavy show season that cycle can go for weeks at a time without a day off. I don't think it's asking too much to be able to occasionally skip a Sunday, or at a minimum leave early on Sunday without being chastised.

Just my 2 cents.

Cougar1978 · August 29, 2012 10:25AM

Carl is a top flight guy and runs a great show.

I have set up at the show on numerous occasions and it has always been a great show and enjoyable experience. As I am primarily retail, I have no interest in selling wholesale or giving my inventory away to some other dealer or being picked off. I am there to buy and sell with the public. So on busy days staying behind my table is critical.

Generally, Sundays are usually a dead day sales wise and can be a good day to do some buying from wholesalers still at the show. Otherwise not really worth my time. I work full time as a financial manager so Sunday about 2pm I am packing up. An old timer I used to share tables with when first setting up at shows once told me "Sell your coins on Saturday and buy on Sunday."

It should be the dealers call to stay on Sunday or not, its their money, their time. I think for some show to penalize dealers for leaving on Sunday is not only an insult to dealers but anti freedom and not good free enterprise. The people who are serious coin buyers or sellers are usually there when the show opens or at least the second day of a 3 day show.

stman · August 29, 2012 12:26PM

<< 

<< I'm not a dealer, and most of the response heres seem to be mostly dealers, but here it goes. We all know Sundays don't work for shows. Dealers blame collectors for not showing up. Collectors blame dealers for not staying so why bother. No use in pointing fingers and once again to make it a us against them. Dealers are certainly entitled to leave when they please. Myself, I don't travel to shows anymore and mainly because I can't be there early in the show all the time. I just won't pay many of the expense, and go through the aggravation that go along with it to justify it. It's all about choices folks.

I will say it gets annoying that I hear all the time "serious collectors will be there early in the show." We have enough folks in this world defining ones character.
Keep in mind the other side of the coin is perhaps some of these "serious collectors" can't be there early because they have jobs, a business to run and they need to keep this up to continue to be the coveted "serious collector." One more thing, when they mainly stopped Sunday shows, then the dealers would leave Saturday early or Friday. That's what they choose to do, and I choose to not attend. Very simple. >>

stman...yes, everyone knows Sundays don't work... but by the same token, everyone also knows that the first day of a show offers the best selection.
And let's be honest...if a collector wants to go to a show badly enough, he can usually find a way. It's not like collectors don't have ample advance notice of shows well in advance via websites, trade publications, show calendars, etc., enabling most of them to plan ahead far enough to make time to hit the show early if it's that important to them. I even know people that take vacation or flex days to hit major shows. Like you so aptly put it, it's all about choices. So...If someone chooses to come late, should every single dealer be forced to stick around and for many if not most, technically lose money Sunday?

Also, people tend to forget that although as you stated, collectors "have jobs, a business to run..", etc....guess what? So do we... and we also have lives outside of numismatics that we would like to be able to make time for on occasion. Many storefront coin dealers are open all week, then do a show all weekend, essentially working 7 days a week, and during heavy show season that cycle can go for weeks at a time without a day off. I don't think it's asking too much to be able to occasionally skip a Sunday, or at a minimum leave early on Sunday without being chastised.

Just my 2 cents. >>

Not sure what all that was for. I didn't "chastise anyone." And I agreed you are entitled to do what you want. And so am I, and I do. It's still that simple.

telephoto1 · August 30, 2012 1:08AM

ST-Never said you chastised anyone. The only part of my remarks that addressed anything you specifically said were concerning collectors having a job, etc. The rest spoke to the topic in general. Peace...

Unknown · August 30, 2012 9:46AM

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Interesting Article on Dealers/Collectors and Coin Shows

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