<< <i>Number of posts I've read here by collectors who complain when a dealer won't reduce the price of a coin he's had for sale for a couple of years: More than I can remember.
Number of posts I've read here by dealers who complain when collectors won't pay the listed price of a coin he's had for sale for a couple of years: I don't remember any.
Maybe there's a lesson here. Maybe not. >>
Those are the same dealers who don't know how to use the internet and join the message boards?
<< <i>Those are the same dealers who don't know how to use the internet and join the message boards? >>
Could be. Too bad for them, missing out on all the business experts here expounding on How Things Should Be Done. I mean- looking at *one coin* for sale and being able to extrapolate from that example that the seller doesn't know how to run a business? Pretty serious stuff on display here. They should be charging tuition.
<< <i>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein >>
I agree. Why do we have to have so many threads complaining about why some dealers charge too much for their coins and will not drop their prices over time?
I have made and lost money in coins; I know when to take my losses when there is no market above reasonable offers. Example: I bought an 1866 $20 Liberty in an ANACS MS60 holder for then bid, just under $4K. I ran it through both PCGS and NGC on crossover, no luck. I even spoke with the head of NGC who told me at the Baltimore show it had rub, wear, etc., and therefore would never MS. Randy Campbell, then with ANACS looked approvingly at the coin and said he like it in that holder and said it was high end, could even 61. It had nice luster and originality, but the bad marks and very light friction were evident. I sold it back to Oxford Company for a $1000 plus loss. Barry who ran that company did it as a sideline from his chiropractic main work, I did not feel too bad when he told me all profits went to charity.
In regards to the ebay link, I did not see that dealer setup at the show. Was it that coin? My gut says it is a different coin, as 03-p is a tough date and often go for a premium.
<< <i>So I ask this question...why would a dealer want to sit on a mid-level coin for more than 2 years...rather than even attempt to cut his losses and clear the inventory? >>
You could ask him next time you see him, I suppose.
It's been two years already and you're still looking at the coin? Why not buy one from another dealer who's prices are closer to what you consider the actual value to be?
<<It's been two years already and you're still looking at the coin? Why not buy one from another dealer who's prices are closer to what you consider the actual value to be? >>
Because, believe it or not, but nice 64PL Morgans aren't in as great abundance as would be expected...and when you already have more than half the set complete, it's a crapshoot as to when the next date/MM combination will arise that you need. And this just happens to be the only one in 64 I've come across during sporatic searching (as I don't hit every major show).
Therefore, every time I see this particular slab, I remember how much time has passed.
This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often.
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it?
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
<< <i><<It's been two years already and you're still looking at the coin? Why not buy one from another dealer who's prices are closer to what you consider the actual value to be? >>
Because, believe it or not, but nice 64PL Morgans aren't in as great abundance as would be expected...and when you already have more than half the set complete, it's a crapshoot as to when the next date/MM combination will arise that you need. And this just happens to be the only one in 64 I've come across during sporatic searching (as I don't hit every major show).
Therefore, every time I see this particular slab, I remember how much time has passed. >>
Sounds like your OP story isn't too strange then. Seems the dealer will eventually get his asking price if this piece is that uncommon.
If you want to fill that hole in your collection you'll probably have to pony up the dough, either this piece from this dealer, or a similar piece from another dealer. This is the biggest reason why I moved away from collecting all the dates/mm/varieties of a particular series. I just couldn't justify paying so much for the scarcer coins that I didn't really want just to "complete my set". The major key dates/varieties that I wanted, I couldn't afford. And the ones I could afford, I didn't want.
I now collect more of a typeset/individual pretty coins/eclectic mix and I think I am much happier as a collector because of it.
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
BINGO I think we have a winner.......
>>
It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide.
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
BINGO I think we have a winner.......
>>
It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide. >>
Yup. If his ask price is so reasonable, why hasn't he sold it after two years?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide. >>
Depending on the situation, not really. Two things...
1. How many people are looking for the coin? If not a whole lot, it wouldn't be surprising for it to take some time for a buyer to come along. 2. The number in question isn't printed in a price guide- it's based on actual past sales.
From everything I can see here, the dealer doesn't seem to be complaining about having to hold the coin. I would imagine if somone here could find the past auction sales that were posted above, the dealer could, too. Is it that big of a surprise that the dealer might just decide to hold out for the $600 he's asking?
<<It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide. >>
And especially since the number printed in the guide is only slightly more than half the asking price. And I've already offered considerably over the guide.
A reasonable premium is one thing...but this still seems a bit much...unless you think you have a closet 65PL there just waiting for a regrade...and that's a major assumption!
<< <i>And especially since the number printed in the guide is only slightly more than half the asking price. >>
What's the point of quoting a price guide when records of past sales show that the number in the guide is not accurate?
<< <i>And I've already offered considerably over the guide. >>
I'll bet if the guide said $600 and the past couple of auction sales were for $225 and $260, you wouldn't be offering "considerably over the guide", would you?
<<I'll bet if the guide said $600 and the past couple of auction sales were for $225 and $260, you wouldn't be offering "considerably over the guide", would you?>>
Actually, as a collector who holds coins for decades and rarely sells anything...I made what I believed to be a generous offer simply because I'd like to finish this collection before the Second Coming...nothing more mysterious than that.
And then, when I'm pushing up daisies and my rotten kids decide to sell everything, I'll let them worry about making a profit.
Nothing more than that went into my decisionmaking...simply the desire to fill another hole.
And just to add another tidbit to this issue...a year or two ago..when this first came up...I think the dealer might have mumbled something about "This makes a jump in the next grade."
So...I'm thinking that he thinks he has something extra special here...and he's waiting for all the stars to align for an upgrade.
<< <i>1. How many people are looking for the coin? If not a whole lot, it wouldn't be surprising for it to take some time for a buyer to come along. >>
I would agree if the coin in question were some esoteric item. It's a mid-grade Morgan dollar which is one of the most collected coin series so it's safe to assume numerous collectors and dealers have seen this coin over the last two years and passed on the coin probably because of the high asking price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>So...I'm thinking that he thinks he has something extra special here...and he's waiting for all the stars to align for an upgrade. >>
And the problem with that is... what? As I posted before, he's not the one with the complaint and if you don't like his price, buy from someone else.
<< <i>I made what I believed to be a generous offer simply because I'd like to finish this collection before the Second Coming...nothing more mysterious than that. >>
And the dealer declined your offer because he thinks he can do better... nothing more mysterious than that.
edited to add...
<< <i>It's a mid-grade Morgan dollar which is one of the most collected coin series so it's safe to assume numerous collectors and dealers have seen this coin over the last two years and passed on the coin probably because of the high asking price. >>
People can assume all kinds of things, but it doesn't necessarily make them so. But for the sake of argument, let's say it's so. Based on the info posted in this thread, actual sales of this coin seem to show that the price guide is not accurate for this particular coin. Until such time as the price guide people start selling coins, I'd suggest that the prices reflected in actual sales are more accurate than those listed in price guides. It appears that the dealer in question realizes this and is willing to wait for a buyer whose opinion of the coin is more in line with his own.
Nobody owes you a deal just because you insist on paying what a price guide says.
1. Buy the coin from the dealer at the dealer's price. 2. Don't buy the coin at the dealer's price and hope that he can find one for a more satisfactory price. 3. Just forget about owning one.
Trying to figure out what makes the dealer tick is unrewarding and does nothing to advance the cause (or put it to rest).
I know if it were me, and there was a coin that I wanted for two years, and it would cost me a couple hundred more than I wanted to pay AND there was auction prices realized that supported this amount, I would buy it. Heck, after this thread, I am tempted to buy it and relist it for $747.
<< <i>I know if it were me, and there was a coin that I wanted for two years, and it would cost me a couple hundred more than I wanted to pay AND there was auction prices realized that supported this amount, I would buy it. Heck, after this thread, I am tempted to buy it and relist it for $747. >>
Where is the list price you are getting from? The realized prices I mentioned were PCGS coins.
I know the dealer just from shows and he does not seem like the type to be real harsh on prices. I could see him having a coin that takes a big jump in 65 and sticking to a price.
An some similar coins, at least from close years, I bought a 1902-O in 63DMPL at the ANA for 500, about double sheet. I recently paid about double sheet for a 1900-O in DMPL also. The post 1900 PL/DMPL coins are scarce and often ugly. The 1904-O is the only real plentiful coin. The coins I bought were PCGS.
The OP and dealer seem just far enough off where this just won't work. I can see both sides here and feel like I have been on both sides. Better date PL's are hard to price.
Edit: To clarify, on the 1900-O I paid over the 63 sheet money, there is no 62 greysheet value.
If you look at his completed auctions, he sell a bunch for less than full retail. He might be keeping this up there out of of spite. If I owned the coin, and read this thread, I would raise it up 1 minute after reading this, maybe as high as $1500.00 or so.
<< <i>Well...if that coin still doesn't sell with all this publicity...from many knowledgeable people, then maybe...just maybe..IT IS priced a bit too high. >>
Or maybe, just maybe, of the many knowledgeable people here, none of them want the coin even though it's priced reasonably.
If you don't mind, though, I'm still curious. Why do you feel a price guide is a better gauge of its value than the prices realized in past auctions?
<<If you don't mind, though, I'm still curious. Why do you feel a price guide is a better gauge of its value than the prices realized in past auctions? >>
Well, other than the auction record for this particular coin being rather thin, then unless I had actually held those coins in my hand (like this coin), perhaps the buyers believed they had a reasonable shot at an upgrade or coming back DMPL. And as we all know, not all coins are created equal, even within the same grade.
Just because a couple of coins went for something of a premium over a period of a few years, doesn't mean that everything should automatically get pumped up sight unseen.
<< <i>Just because a couple of coins went for something of a premium over a period of a few years, doesn't mean that everything should automatically get pumped up sight unseen. >>
Went for something of a premium over what? A price guide? If price guides don't get their prices from actual sales, where do you suppose they do come from?
<<If price guides don't get their prices from actual sales, where do you suppose they do come from? >>
I would hope that a major price guide would consider a broader range of factors than just a couple of isolated sales involving potentially exceptional coins...otherwise I'd say that price guides would be very susceptable to staged/rigged auctions artificially pumping up prices across the board.
As I said, were the auctioned coins potentially undergraded? Was there a bidding war where things got a bit carried away? Who knows?
But I do know that several people on this board looking at photos of the coin in question yesterday...were even questioning if this was a solid 64 (to be fair, in hand I thought it was)...and not an overgraded 63.
I just pulled out my 1903 PCGS 64PL. I purchased mine privately for 600, it was on consignment for much, much more than that previously and I remember having the discussion with the owner about the pricing. I am sure the jump in 65 had to do with the consignment price, he had paid over 1000 for it.
<< <i><<If price guides don't get their prices from actual sales, where do you suppose they do come from? >>
I would hope that a major price guide would consider a broader range of factors than just a couple of isolated sales involving potentially exceptional coins...otherwise I'd say that price guides would be very susceptable to staged/rigged auctions artificially pumping up prices across the board. >>
If there aren't a lot of sales to go by, what do you suggest a price guide do? Make up values? Again, based on, if not actual sales, what?
<< <i>But I do know that several people on this board looking at photos of the coin in question yesterday...were even questioning if this was a solid 64 (to be fair, in hand I thought it was)...and not an overgraded 63. >>
Are you saying that price guides should get info from people who have viewed images of coins online, but ignore actual sales?
I held a coin ten years before it sold at my price. I made money on it. There a number of coins I held a long time before I got my price. I don't buy and sell coins to lose money. If sales slow, then I slow my buying too. I don't give away coins at a loss unless a problem has developed - coin going bad in holder, etc. Don't be pressured to give away your nice coins bc they won't pay the money. Sooner or later someone will come along who will.
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
<< <i>You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Clearly, it's a very special coin- one that's overvalued by the seller, but nobody else seems to have one available for sale at the "correct" price. >>
Then he knows the situation and realizes the "correct price" is not for real and he is gonna sit on it until it realizes his price. I had a similar situation with a NBN which had only 6 known for that bank. Had one guy email me wanting to pressure me at his price. I told him "well go find one then." Two weeks later another fellow bought it at my price. I have all types of collectors try to argue with me sometimes about a price and I guess they don't realize they are blowing in the wind. They will quote all kinda sources in a futile attempt to talk me down.
<< <i>You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Clearly, it's a very special coin- one that's overvalued by the seller, but nobody else seems to have one available for sale at the "correct" price. >>
Then he knows the situation and realizes the "correct price" is not for real and he is gonna sit on it until it realizes his price. I had a similar situation with a NBN which had only 6 known for that bank. Had one guy email me wanting to pressure me at his price. I told him "well go find one then." Two weeks later another fellow bought it at my price. I have all types of collectors try to argue with me sometimes about a price and I guess they don't realize they are blowing in the wind. They will quote all kinda sources in a futile attempt to talk me down. >>
In this business there is invariably a steadfast group of people who think that any value they see in print is carved in stone, and can't fathom the idea of something being either less valuable or more valuable than "sheet", "book", "trends", etc. Coins like this puzzle them. They think the seller's crazy, not a good businessman, etc., get mad, talk badly about him, etc... it's reminiscent of a child who can't get the toy he wants. Of course they'll invariably lash out with "Well, they don't seem to hold that philosophy when I'M selling MY piece to THEM!" ...Um, sir, that's usually because you have your piece overgraded two points and/or it's cleaned...
Bottom Line...it looks like $600 buys this coin, nothing less. If you want it, pay him.
Or, perhaps you could work a trade/partial trade deal where you both end up happy. Has anyone tried that yet?
<< <i>Or, perhaps you could work a trade/partial trade deal where you both end up happy. Has anyone tried that yet? >>
I have used this technique when dealing with an obstinate seller who wouldn't budge on an outrageous price. I traded him a comparable coin in the same grade, that was a duplicate in my collection, plus a small amount of cash.
<< <i>I held a coin ten years before it sold at my price. I made money on it. There a number of coins I held a long time before I got my price. I don't buy and sell coins to lose money. If sales slow, then I slow my buying too. I don't give away coins at a loss unless a problem has developed - coin going bad in holder, etc. Don't be pressured to give away your nice coins bc they won't pay the money. Sooner or later someone will come along who will.
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
<< <i>I held a coin ten years before it sold at my price. I made money on it. There a number of coins I held a long time before I got my price. I don't buy and sell coins to lose money. If sales slow, then I slow my buying too. I don't give away coins at a loss unless a problem has developed - coin going bad in holder, etc. Don't be pressured to give away your nice coins bc they won't pay the money. Sooner or later someone will come along who will.
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
You may be right.
But, before I held a coin ten years before selling it at my price, I would consider the thought that maybe I made a mistake when I bought the coin. And, maybe getting out of it at a loss, then buying something else I can make a profit on, would be more profitable in the long run compared with holding onto the coin ten years to make a profit.
Here is an example: Let's say you bought a coin for $1,000 and are trying to sell it for $1,250. After some time, say a year, you realize the most you can get for it is $800. If you take the $800, buy a coin and sell it for $900 in a few months, take the $900, buy a coin and sell it for $1,000, take the $1,000, buy a coin and sell it for $1,100, etc. and make $100 each time, I believe after ten years you will have more than $1,250.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I do find it interesting that the tone of this conversation has evolved over the past few days from basically, "That coin might not even be 64PL" and "Why would you offer above list for that?" and "That dealer must have rocks in his head!" to "For that coin you're gonna have to cough up whatever it takes" and "That dealer seems to know what he's doing."
Just interesting to note since none of the basic facts at hand have changed in the past 72 hours.
If I were a coin dealer and I had a coin in a popular series and I showed it to many collectors and dealers over a period of several years and nobody wanted to buy it at my price, I would have to seriously consider that my ask price was unrealistically high.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
Maybe he's simply in love with it and doesn't care, or maybe he's doing it out of spite now, because so many people have tried to buy it cheap... only the seller knows for sure.
Comments
<< <i>Number of posts I've read here by collectors who complain when a dealer won't reduce the price of a coin he's had for sale for a couple of years: More than I can remember.
Number of posts I've read here by dealers who complain when collectors won't pay the listed price of a coin he's had for sale for a couple of years: I don't remember any.
Maybe there's a lesson here. Maybe not. >>
Those are the same dealers who don't know how to use the internet and join the message boards?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Those are the same dealers who don't know how to use the internet and join the message boards?
Could be. Too bad for them, missing out on all the business experts here expounding on How Things Should Be Done. I mean- looking at *one coin* for sale and being able to extrapolate from that example that the seller doesn't know how to run a business? Pretty serious stuff on display here. They should be charging tuition.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
<< <i>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein >>
I agree. Why do we have to have so many threads complaining about why some dealers charge too much for their coins and will not drop their prices over time?
Sell or not, I can be pretty sure this guys life doesn't change either way.......
Yes it was...he looked to be sharing a table. And last year, he was at the Whitman show also.
<< <i>So I ask this question...why would a dealer want to sit on a mid-level coin for more than 2 years...rather than even attempt to cut his losses and clear the inventory? >>
You could ask him next time you see him, I suppose.
It's been two years already and you're still looking at the coin? Why not buy one from another dealer who's prices are closer to what you consider the actual value to be?
Because, believe it or not, but nice 64PL Morgans aren't in as great abundance as would be expected...and when you already have more than half the set complete, it's a crapshoot as to when the next date/MM combination will arise that you need. And this just happens to be the only one in 64 I've come across during sporatic searching (as I don't hit every major show).
Therefore, every time I see this particular slab, I remember how much time has passed.
<< <i>Because, believe it or not, but nice 64PL Morgans aren't in as great abundance as would be expected... >>
If that's so, have you considered the possibility that your estimation of market value might be off a bit?
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it?
<< <i>
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
BINGO I think we have a winner.......
<< <i><<It's been two years already and you're still looking at the coin? Why not buy one from another dealer who's prices are closer to what you consider the actual value to be? >>
Because, believe it or not, but nice 64PL Morgans aren't in as great abundance as would be expected...and when you already have more than half the set complete, it's a crapshoot as to when the next date/MM combination will arise that you need. And this just happens to be the only one in 64 I've come across during sporatic searching (as I don't hit every major show).
Therefore, every time I see this particular slab, I remember how much time has passed. >>
Sounds like your OP story isn't too strange then. Seems the dealer will eventually get his asking price if this piece is that uncommon.
If you want to fill that hole in your collection you'll probably have to pony up the dough, either this piece from this dealer, or a similar piece from another dealer. This is the biggest reason why I moved away from collecting all the dates/mm/varieties of a particular series. I just couldn't justify paying so much for the scarcer coins that I didn't really want just to "complete my set". The major key dates/varieties that I wanted, I couldn't afford. And the ones I could afford, I didn't want.
I now collect more of a typeset/individual pretty coins/eclectic mix and I think I am much happier as a collector because of it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
BINGO I think we have a winner.......
It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This is a very tough coin to price. Auction records show a PCGS coin for 575 in 8/11 and a PCGS coin for 748 in 2007. That is it for relevant 64PL comparisons. I think I paid 600 for my PCGS 64PL example, with a low pop only about 100 in PCGS holders they do not come up that often. >>
It sounds like $600 is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the coin then, does it? >>
BINGO I think we have a winner.......
It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide. >>
Yup. If his ask price is so reasonable, why hasn't he sold it after two years?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>It seems to me that a coin sitting unsold for two years is a more compelling bit of information than some number printed in a price guide. >>
Depending on the situation, not really. Two things...
1. How many people are looking for the coin? If not a whole lot, it wouldn't be surprising for it to take some time for a buyer to come along.
2. The number in question isn't printed in a price guide- it's based on actual past sales.
From everything I can see here, the dealer doesn't seem to be complaining about having to hold the coin. I would imagine if somone here could find the past auction sales that were posted above, the dealer could, too. Is it that big of a surprise that the dealer might just decide to hold out for the $600 he's asking?
And especially since the number printed in the guide is only slightly more than half the asking price. And I've already offered considerably over the guide.
A reasonable premium is one thing...but this still seems a bit much...unless you think you have a closet 65PL there just waiting for a regrade...and that's a major assumption!
<< <i>And especially since the number printed in the guide is only slightly more than half the asking price. >>
What's the point of quoting a price guide when records of past sales show that the number in the guide is not accurate?
<< <i>And I've already offered considerably over the guide. >>
I'll bet if the guide said $600 and the past couple of auction sales were for $225 and $260, you wouldn't be offering "considerably over the guide", would you?
Actually, as a collector who holds coins for decades and rarely sells anything...I made what I believed to be a generous offer simply because I'd like to finish this collection before the Second Coming...nothing more mysterious than that.
And then, when I'm pushing up daisies and my rotten kids decide to sell everything, I'll let them worry about making a profit.
Nothing more than that went into my decisionmaking...simply the desire to fill another hole.
And just to add another tidbit to this issue...a year or two ago..when this first came up...I think the dealer might have mumbled something about "This makes a jump in the next grade."
So...I'm thinking that he thinks he has something extra special here...and he's waiting for all the stars to align for an upgrade.
<< <i>1. How many people are looking for the coin? If not a whole lot, it wouldn't be surprising for it to take some time for a buyer to come along. >>
I would agree if the coin in question were some esoteric item. It's a mid-grade Morgan dollar which is one of the most collected coin series so it's safe to assume numerous collectors and dealers have seen this coin over the last two years and passed on the coin probably because of the high asking price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
<< <i>So...I'm thinking that he thinks he has something extra special here...and he's waiting for all the stars to align for an upgrade. >>
And the problem with that is... what? As I posted before, he's not the one with the complaint and if you don't like his price, buy from someone else.
<< <i>I made what I believed to be a generous offer simply because I'd like to finish this collection before the Second Coming...nothing more mysterious than that. >>
And the dealer declined your offer because he thinks he can do better... nothing more mysterious than that.
edited to add...
<< <i>It's a mid-grade Morgan dollar which is one of the most collected coin series so it's safe to assume numerous collectors and dealers have seen this coin over the last two years and passed on the coin probably because of the high asking price. >>
People can assume all kinds of things, but it doesn't necessarily make them so. But for the sake of argument, let's say it's so. Based on the info posted in this thread, actual sales of this coin seem to show that the price guide is not accurate for this particular coin. Until such time as the price guide people start selling coins, I'd suggest that the prices reflected in actual sales are more accurate than those listed in price guides. It appears that the dealer in question realizes this and is willing to wait for a buyer whose opinion of the coin is more in line with his own.
Nobody owes you a deal just because you insist on paying what a price guide says.
1. Buy the coin from the dealer at the dealer's price.
2. Don't buy the coin at the dealer's price and hope that he can find one for a more satisfactory price.
3. Just forget about owning one.
Trying to figure out what makes the dealer tick is unrewarding and does nothing to advance the cause (or put it to rest).
I know if it were me, and there was a coin that I wanted for two years, and it would cost me a couple hundred more than I wanted to pay AND there was auction prices realized that supported this amount, I would buy it. Heck, after this thread, I am tempted to buy it and relist it for $747.
<< <i>I know if it were me, and there was a coin that I wanted for two years, and it would cost me a couple hundred more than I wanted to pay AND there was auction prices realized that supported this amount, I would buy it. Heck, after this thread, I am tempted to buy it and relist it for $747.
That would lead to a 100+ thread for sure.
Go ahead and then we could have a Back to the Future moment [climbing into the Dalorian now]
And in 5 years we'll have a thread titled...
"From the 2017 ANA Show...Strange Dealer Story"
There's this guy who's been trying this sell this coin for the past 5 years...for triple the list price...
<< <i>There's this guy who's been trying this sell this coin for the past 2 years...for more than list price... >>
Just out of curiosity- why do you think list price is a more accurate reflection of current market value than actual auction results?
edited for clarity...
Where is the list price you are getting from? The realized prices I mentioned were PCGS coins.
I know the dealer just from shows and he does not seem like the type to be real harsh on prices. I could see him having a coin that takes a big jump in 65 and sticking to a price.
An some similar coins, at least from close years, I bought a 1902-O in 63DMPL at the ANA for 500, about double sheet. I recently paid about double sheet for a 1900-O in DMPL also. The post 1900 PL/DMPL coins are scarce and often ugly. The 1904-O is the only real plentiful coin. The coins I bought were PCGS.
The OP and dealer seem just far enough off where this just won't work. I can see both sides here and feel like I have been on both sides. Better date PL's are hard to price.
Edit: To clarify, on the 1900-O I paid over the 63 sheet money, there is no 62 greysheet value.
If you look at his completed auctions, he sell a bunch for less than full retail. He might be keeping this up there out of of spite. If I owned the coin, and read this thread, I would raise it up 1 minute after reading this, maybe as high as $1500.00 or so.
<< <i>Well...if that coin still doesn't sell with all this publicity...from many knowledgeable people, then maybe...just maybe..IT IS priced a bit too high. >>
Or maybe, just maybe, of the many knowledgeable people here, none of them want the coin even though it's priced reasonably.
If you don't mind, though, I'm still curious. Why do you feel a price guide is a better gauge of its value than the prices realized in past auctions?
Or maybe, just maybe, of the many knowledgeable people here, none of them want the coin even though it's priced reasonably.
>>
Heard something astute at the ANA last week - sometime rare coin buyers are more rare than rare coins.
Well, other than the auction record for this particular coin being rather thin, then unless I had actually held those coins in my hand (like this coin), perhaps the buyers believed they had a reasonable shot at an upgrade or coming back DMPL. And as we all know, not all coins are created equal, even within the same grade.
Just because a couple of coins went for something of a premium over a period of a few years, doesn't mean that everything should automatically get pumped up sight unseen.
<< <i>Just because a couple of coins went for something of a premium over a period of a few years, doesn't mean that everything should automatically get pumped up sight unseen. >>
Went for something of a premium over what? A price guide? If price guides don't get their prices from actual sales, where do you suppose they do come from?
I would hope that a major price guide would consider a broader range of factors than just a couple of isolated sales involving potentially exceptional coins...otherwise I'd say that price guides would be very susceptable to staged/rigged auctions artificially pumping up prices across the board.
As I said, were the auctioned coins potentially undergraded? Was there a bidding war where things got a bit carried away? Who knows?
But I do know that several people on this board looking at photos of the coin in question yesterday...were even questioning if this was a solid 64 (to be fair, in hand I thought it was)...and not an overgraded 63.
<< <i><<If price guides don't get their prices from actual sales, where do you suppose they do come from? >>
I would hope that a major price guide would consider a broader range of factors than just a couple of isolated sales involving potentially exceptional coins...otherwise I'd say that price guides would be very susceptable to staged/rigged auctions artificially pumping up prices across the board. >>
If there aren't a lot of sales to go by, what do you suggest a price guide do? Make up values? Again, based on, if not actual sales, what?
<< <i>But I do know that several people on this board looking at photos of the coin in question yesterday...were even questioning if this was a solid 64 (to be fair, in hand I thought it was)...and not an overgraded 63. >>
Are you saying that price guides should get info from people who have viewed images of coins online, but ignore actual sales?
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
You will need to find one somewhere else.
<< <i>You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Clearly, it's a very special coin- one that's overvalued by the seller, but nobody else seems to have one available for sale at the "correct" price.
<< <i>
<< <i>You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Clearly, it's a very special coin- one that's overvalued by the seller, but nobody else seems to have one available for sale at the "correct" price.
Then he knows the situation and realizes the "correct price" is not for real and he is gonna sit on it until it realizes his price. I had a similar situation with a NBN which had only 6 known for that bank. Had one guy email me wanting to pressure me at his price. I told him "well go find one then." Two weeks later another fellow bought it at my price. I have all types of collectors try to argue with me sometimes about a price and I guess they don't realize they are blowing in the wind. They will quote all kinda sources in a futile attempt to talk me down.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Clearly, it's a very special coin- one that's overvalued by the seller, but nobody else seems to have one available for sale at the "correct" price.
Then he knows the situation and realizes the "correct price" is not for real and he is gonna sit on it until it realizes his price. I had a similar situation with a NBN which had only 6 known for that bank. Had one guy email me wanting to pressure me at his price. I told him "well go find one then." Two weeks later another fellow bought it at my price. I have all types of collectors try to argue with me sometimes about a price and I guess they don't realize they are blowing in the wind. They will quote all kinda sources in a futile attempt to talk me down. >>
In this business there is invariably a steadfast group of people who think that any value they see in print is carved in stone, and can't fathom the idea of something being either less valuable or more valuable than "sheet", "book", "trends", etc. Coins like this puzzle them. They think the seller's crazy, not a good businessman, etc., get mad, talk badly about him, etc... it's reminiscent of a child who can't get the toy he wants.
Of course they'll invariably lash out with "Well, they don't seem to hold that philosophy when I'M selling MY piece to THEM!" ...Um, sir, that's usually because you have your piece overgraded two points and/or it's cleaned...
Bottom Line...it looks like $600 buys this coin, nothing less. If you want it, pay him.
Or, perhaps you could work a trade/partial trade deal where you both end up happy. Has anyone tried that yet?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Or, perhaps you could work a trade/partial trade deal where you both end up happy. Has anyone tried that yet? >>
I have used this technique when dealing with an obstinate seller who wouldn't budge on an outrageous price. I traded him a comparable coin in the same grade, that was a duplicate in my collection, plus a small amount of cash.
<< <i>I held a coin ten years before it sold at my price. I made money on it. There a number of coins I held a long time before I got my price. I don't buy and sell coins to lose money. If sales slow, then I slow my buying too. I don't give away coins at a loss unless a problem has developed - coin going bad in holder, etc. Don't be pressured to give away your nice coins bc they won't pay the money. Sooner or later someone will come along who will.
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
Bravo! Well said.
<< <i>I held a coin ten years before it sold at my price. I made money on it. There a number of coins I held a long time before I got my price. I don't buy and sell coins to lose money. If sales slow, then I slow my buying too. I don't give away coins at a loss unless a problem has developed - coin going bad in holder, etc. Don't be pressured to give away your nice coins bc they won't pay the money. Sooner or later someone will come along who will.
His coin is a keeper coin - if you don't pay the money then you won't get the coin. He does not care what you or anyone else thinks about it. If he is reading this probably laughing his x off at this thread.
You will need to find one somewhere else. >>
You may be right.
But, before I held a coin ten years before selling it at my price, I would consider the thought that maybe I made a mistake when I bought the coin. And, maybe getting out of it at a loss, then buying something else I can make a profit on, would be more profitable in the long run compared with holding onto the coin ten years to make a profit.
Here is an example: Let's say you bought a coin for $1,000 and are trying to sell it for $1,250. After some time, say a year, you realize the most you can get for it is $800. If you take the $800, buy a coin and sell it for $900 in a few months, take the $900, buy a coin and sell it for $1,000, take the $1,000, buy a coin and sell it for $1,100, etc. and make $100 each time, I believe after ten years you will have more than $1,250.
Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Just interesting to note since none of the basic facts at hand have changed in the past 72 hours.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Voltaire: Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Just interesting to note since none of the basic facts at hand have changed in the past 72 hours. >>
You mean like the fact that past sales seem to support the dealer's position on his pricing?
<< <i>
<< <i>Just interesting to note since none of the basic facts at hand have changed in the past 72 hours. >>
You mean like the fact that past sales seem to support the dealer's position on his pricing? >>
To some point it does. Remember the coin is an NGC 64PL, the past auctions were PCGS coins. To me that would make a huge price difference.