<< <i>I'm not sure I would use Trueview in the future. >>
Make that two of us! >>
I have not used the service and this is one of the reasons why. It always seemed a bit vague to me what you could and could not do...and then if they decided they wanted to be picky or strict at some point there just would not be much you could do.
If the website became a bit of a tribute to PCGS photography services, large logo everywhere, links to PCGS website and a promise to not use the website FOR PROFIT(such as advertising on the site and making money by using PCGS' photos) then I think it would be silly for them to pass up on the opportunity.
Good luck.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>If I pay for a service, whether it be a wedding photo shoot, a coin photo shoot or an automobile photo shoot, my payment for these services will include rights to utilize the photo results in any way I choose. This will be signed in advance by both parties or I will not allow the photo shoot to occur at all. >>
This is called a licensing agreement. Depending on the circumstance, expect to pay more for it than if you weren't interested in obtaining such rights.
<< <i>If I pay for a service, whether it be a wedding photo shoot, a coin photo shoot or an automobile photo shoot, my payment for these services will include rights to utilize the photo results in any way I choose. This will be signed in advance by both parties or I will not allow the photo shoot to occur at all. >>
This is called a licensing agreement. Depending on the circumstance, expect to pay more for it than if you weren't interested in obtaining such rights. >>
If you want the most flexibility, you can try to get the copyright ownership assigned to you (similar to how a photographer can assign ownership to their employer). Some photographers will do this for free, some will charge, and some won't do it at all. Some wedding photographers will do this. I'm not sure if any of the more popular coin photographers will do this.
Another thing you can try to get is a non-exclusive, irrevocable, unlimited, worldwide usage license. Many websites that allow users to upload photos have some sort of clause like this where when you upload an image, you're agreeing to let the website do whatever they want with it, forever, for free.
Soooo...you pay to get a picture of your coin taken, but cannot do what you want with the image? Especially with what the cost is? Seems kind of crazy to me. All that is going to do is frustrate people and they will begin to crop the watermarks out which would give PCGS absolutely no credit to the image of the coin.
<< <i>Recently I had an article published in the Coin Dealer News letter. Even though, is it my article I can't photocopy it without permission because it is their copyright. I even supplied the image they printed. >>
When I (and others I know) have had articles published in (legal and technical) publications, I can often get a free license to republish and distribute the articles myself, typically from a personal or company website. Publications will often allow this but won't tell you about it. You need to take initiative to ask, and hopefully before the article is submitted and published
<< <i>Soooo...you pay to get a picture of your coin taken, but cannot do what you want with the image? Especially with what the cost is? Seems kind of crazy to me. All that is going to do is frustrate people and they will begin to crop the watermarks out which would give PCGS absolutely no credit to the image of the coin. >>
Seems strange to me also. If you pay for pics, you should own them and be able to use them as you see fit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I wonder if a single true view picture of a single coin could be shown by a poster here of the owner of the coin (with full permission) for academic discussion as long as it is not on the poster's website. I assume it is the collective grouping of true-view pictures of multiple coins on a poster's web site that is the problem.
This would then force PCGS to have to verify if each and every owner has given permission to the poster's or anyone else's web site.
Too difficult to verify time-wise so why should PCGS open the floodgates?
A reasonable solution would be to allow PCGS full control of such EDITED pictorial display on PCGS COINFACTS with attribution to the author.
Just dug up the TrueView Q&A Thread Phil did a few months back where Phil provided the following:
<< <i> What are the rules for using TrueView photos for personal use?
1. Can the coin owner have a print made on their own? 2. Can the coin owner use the photo for Ebay, or other sale purposes? 3. Do any of the above rights transfer to new owners upon sale of the underlying coin? >>
I would say yes to all three. I would chalk that up to fair use. Just so long as no one starts putting TrueViews in their own material that they intend to sell, or claim the photo is theirs and sell to Corbis or Getty. >>
Not sure that's consistent with what's being discussed in this thread.
Seems to me all these questions should have been asked before the sites were created, not after. Sorry if this sounds unsympathetic, but although these are nice sites, what has been done is no different than using any other photographer's work without their permission. Any time you pay a photographer to do pictures for you, unless you have a clear contract releasing all image rights to you, the photographer retains the copyright. You only have limited use, i.e., for personal use of the coin owner only. And although you aren't profiting via these sites, it could be argued that the mere publicity of having the sites is a benefit to which you are not entitled since you own none of the items in the photos. That said, I think PCGS is shooting themselves in the foot here from a PR standpoint...
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services. >>
Permission was asked for and received by the coin owner and TrueView purchaser well before the site became live. >>
The photographer (or) employer of the photographer OWNS the RIGHTS to the photography. That is the Law. >>
Minor clarification.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law.
<< <i>That said, I think PCGS is shooting themselves in the foot here from a PR standpoint... >>
PCGS did the right thing. You can not go and grab content with payment and or permission. IMO the OP is very talented at Website design but naive about photographers rights.
The OP has three option IMO:
1) Photography the coins himself
2) HIRE a photographer to shoot the coins for him
3) Ask PCGS if he can pay to use their photography ( They may very well decline as it is THEIR RIGHT)
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
Yes the photographer can SELL his copyright.
He still gets paid this way. >>
Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
Yes the photographer can SELL his copyright.
He still gets paid this way. >>
Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added. >>
Yes that is true as well.
Kind of hard to make a living as a photographer without getting paid tho.
<< <i>Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added. >>
Yes that is true as well.
Kind of hard to make a living as a photographer without getting paid tho. >>
With the introduction of digital cameras, there are now many photographers who do not need to depend on photos to make a living, which has increased the number of photos available under very liberal license or easily transferrable copyright ownership.
However, many copyright owners are still businesses and need to make sound business decisions on what is acceptable when deciding on whether to transfer or license such rights.
In this case, it appears our host would like people to sign up for PCGSCoinFacts.com which is a wonderful site.
<< <i>[ With the introduction of digital cameras, there are now many photographers who do not need to depend on photos to make a living, which has increased the number of photos available under very liberal license or easily transferrable copyright ownership. . >>
All the pictures on both sites have been removed. I am sorry this had to happen. I would hope some arrangement could still be made with PCGS to allow collectors to see these beautiful Lincoln cent MPL's and brilliant proofs on the Coin Facts web site. Steve
Sorry to hear about this and I think it's a poor decision - there's no reason for PCGS to be overbearing towards a website that promotes the hobby AND PCGS!
As was already mentioned, what's the point of getting a coin TruView'ed if you cant use the images as you wish?
"can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish" is an interesting quote. That doesn't sound like the current policy. If the policy changed, I'm curious when the change occurred.
<< <i>It's still on PCGS's website so i would assume if it wasn't true they would have corrected it. >>
The article is dated July 27, 2005. Many articles like that on the Internet get superceded over time and are left online for historical purposes. Think press releases.
Still, it appears that there was once more flexibility with using TrueViews than there is today. It seems using TrueViews on a website like the one in question may have been acceptable at some time in the past.
Perhaps one should read the whole thing in its entirety instead of taking one snippet out of context?
"Our high-quality images will be available directly over the Internet or on a CD that can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion," added Guth. "And once an image has been purchased, it is easily accessible on the Internet for future owners of the coin."
Sounds to me like the images can be used only once purchased.
<< <i>Perhaps one should read the whole thing in its entirety instead of taking one snippet out of context?
"Our high-quality images will be available directly over the Internet or on a CD that can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion," added Guth. "And once an image has been purchased, it is easily accessible on the Internet for future owners of the coin."
Sounds to me like the images can be used only once purchased. >>
In this case, it seems like the purchasers of the images wanted to use them on the website in question, but that is not allowed. However, it appears that using the images on eBay and other websites may be allowed.
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may be reproduced or published)."
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may be reproduced or published)."
FWIW... >>
At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer).
Since TrueView is a separate service where clients are paying for photos, it would be good to have some "sole discretion" text there as well IMO.
If applied to TrueViews, it would be interesting to know if this text was present in 2005 or added at some later date.
There are some great numismatic photographers on this forum.
Maybe we can persuade someone to volunteer photographic services (in exchange for free promotion), and thus retain your web work while using images that do not infringe.
"Giving away an MS-65 $20 St. Gaudens to everyone logged in when I make my 10,000th post..."
<< <i>At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer). >>
Submission Requirements: •The TrueView service is available on Raw, Reholder and Regrade services, and is not available on Crossovers. •The TrueView service must be requested for ALL coins on an order. •Turnaround time will be increased up to 3 days. •The submitter must indicate "TrueView" in the "Other" section of the invoice and add the appropriate fees in the "Fee Calculation" section.
it appears images are ordered on the submission form. In that event, it would seem the terms on the back of the form would apply.
So are TrueView's transferable once the coin is sold since it is tied into the cert number? I guess I wonder what all the jargon is relating to PURCHASER and those who did not purchase the image? If I sell a coin to a dealer, can they use the TrueView I paid for to market the coin? There are too many issues now coming to light regarding TrueViews. I am admittedly confused by what I am paying for when I pay for a TrueView image. And whether or not its transferable since if I sell a coin, the buyer of a TrueViewed coin is not the purchaser of the TrueView image(s). Hmmm...
Why not have some other amazing photographer here from the forums take the photographs? I'm a landscape and nature amateur photographer but really enjoy it as a hobby. I think any coin photographers would feel similarly. I know Phil probably won't get as many submissions due to this but I see payment to other photographers and money that goes right back into our hobby.
<< <i>Why not have some other amazing photographer here from the forums take the photographs? I'm a landscape and nature amateur photographer but really enjoy it as a hobby. I think any coin photographers would feel similarly. I know Phil probably won't get as many submissions due to this but I see payment to other photographers and money that goes right back into our hobby. >>
Not a bad suggestion, but the pics won't look like the ones on the website without shooting them outside of the holder.
<< <i>At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer). >>
Submission Requirements: •The TrueView service is available on Raw, Reholder and Regrade services, and is not available on Crossovers. •The TrueView service must be requested for ALL coins on an order. •Turnaround time will be increased up to 3 days. •The submitter must indicate "TrueView" in the "Other" section of the invoice and add the appropriate fees in the "Fee Calculation" section.
it appears images are ordered on the submission form. In that event, it would seem the terms on the back of the form would apply. >>
It appears that is a good interpretation. I always thought it would be good to have some explicit information on TrueViews on the submission form.
Given some of the confusion on the recent threads, being more explicit may not be a bad thing.
Absent that, it's good to have these issues cleared up on the message boards.
<< <i>Why not have some other amazing photographer here from the forums take the photographs? I'm a landscape and nature amateur photographer but really enjoy it as a hobby. I think any coin photographers would feel similarly. I know Phil probably won't get as many submissions due to this but I see payment to other photographers and money that goes right back into our hobby. >>
Not a bad suggestion, but the pics won't look like the ones on the website without shooting them outside of the holder. >>
I'd go as far as to say there's a "TrueView look" that I haven't seen with photos from other photographers.
Some people have mentioned some of the photos are overexposed by multiple stops and it's hard to disagree with this on some photos. At the same time, it's hard to argue with the pop the photos have as well. They can be truly gorgeous.
The biggest issue is that the TV images are taken when the coins are raw, which avoids all the problems of glare, light diffusion, etc...from plastic slabs.
<< <i>The biggest issue is that the TV images are taken when the coins are raw, which avoids all the problems of glare, light diffusion, etc...from plastic slabs. >>
For me, the biggest issue with in-slab shooting is now the prongs which makes TrueViews even more interesting and worthwhile.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure I would use Trueview in the future. >>
Make that two of us! >>
I have not used the service and this is one of the reasons why. It always seemed a bit vague to me what you could and could not do...and then if they decided they wanted to be picky or strict at some point there just would not be much you could do.
If the website became a bit of a tribute to PCGS photography services, large logo everywhere, links to PCGS website and a promise to not use the website FOR PROFIT(such as advertising on the site and making money by using PCGS' photos) then I think it would be silly for them to pass up on the opportunity.
Good luck.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>If I pay for a service, whether it be a wedding photo shoot, a coin photo shoot or an automobile photo shoot, my payment for these services will include rights to utilize the photo results in any way I choose. This will be signed in advance by both parties or I will not allow the photo shoot to occur at all. >>
This is called a licensing agreement. Depending on the circumstance, expect to pay more for it than if you weren't interested in obtaining such rights.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>If I pay for a service, whether it be a wedding photo shoot, a coin photo shoot or an automobile photo shoot, my payment for these services will include rights to utilize the photo results in any way I choose. This will be signed in advance by both parties or I will not allow the photo shoot to occur at all. >>
This is called a licensing agreement. Depending on the circumstance, expect to pay more for it than if you weren't interested in obtaining such rights. >>
If you want the most flexibility, you can try to get the copyright ownership assigned to you (similar to how a photographer can assign ownership to their employer). Some photographers will do this for free, some will charge, and some won't do it at all. Some wedding photographers will do this. I'm not sure if any of the more popular coin photographers will do this.
Another thing you can try to get is a non-exclusive, irrevocable, unlimited, worldwide usage license. Many websites that allow users to upload photos have some sort of clause like this where when you upload an image, you're agreeing to let the website do whatever they want with it, forever, for free.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>Recently I had an article published in the Coin Dealer News letter. Even though, is it my article I can't photocopy it without permission because it is their copyright. I even supplied the image they printed. >>
When I (and others I know) have had articles published in (legal and technical) publications, I can often get a free license to republish and distribute the articles myself, typically from a personal or company website. Publications will often allow this but won't tell you about it. You need to take initiative to ask, and hopefully before the article is submitted and published
<< <i>Soooo...you pay to get a picture of your coin taken, but cannot do what you want with the image? Especially with what the cost is? Seems kind of crazy to me. All that is going to do is frustrate people and they will begin to crop the watermarks out which would give PCGS absolutely no credit to the image of the coin. >>
Seems strange to me also. If you pay for pics, you should own them and be able to use them as you see fit.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I assume it is the collective grouping of true-view pictures of multiple coins on a poster's web site that is the problem.
This would then force PCGS to have to verify if each and every owner has given permission to the poster's or anyone else's web site.
Too difficult to verify time-wise so why should PCGS open the floodgates?
A reasonable solution would be to allow PCGS full control of such EDITED pictorial display on PCGS COINFACTS with attribution to the author.
This way, we can all continue to LEARN!
<< <i>That's really too bad, maybe they will reconsider?
I agree.
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services.
<< <i> What are the rules for using TrueView photos for personal use?
1. Can the coin owner have a print made on their own?
2. Can the coin owner use the photo for Ebay, or other sale purposes?
3. Do any of the above rights transfer to new owners upon sale of the underlying coin? >>
I would say yes to all three. I would chalk that up to fair use. Just so long as no one starts putting TrueViews in their own material that they intend to sell, or claim the photo is theirs and sell to Corbis or Getty. >>
Not sure that's consistent with what's being discussed in this thread.
<< <i>Awesome move PCGS. THANK YOU!!!!!!!
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services. >>
Permission was asked for and received by the coin owner and TrueView purchaser well before the site became live.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>
<< <i>Awesome move PCGS. THANK YOU!!!!!!!
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services. >>
Permission was asked for and received by the coin owner and TrueView purchaser well before the site became live. >>
The photographer (or) employer of the photographer OWNS the RIGHTS to the photography. That is the Law.
That said, I think PCGS is shooting themselves in the foot here from a PR standpoint...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Awesome move PCGS. THANK YOU!!!!!!!
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services. >>
Permission was asked for and received by the coin owner and TrueView purchaser well before the site became live. >>
The photographer (or) employer of the photographer OWNS the RIGHTS to the photography. That is the Law. >>
Minor clarification.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law.
<< <i>
That said, I think PCGS is shooting themselves in the foot here from a PR standpoint... >>
Seeing that PCGS was the largest benefactor of these two websites, I would agree.
Just as they have the right to demand the sites come down, they also have the right to allow them to stay up.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>That said, I think PCGS is shooting themselves in the foot here from a PR standpoint... >>
PCGS did the right thing. You can not go and grab content with payment and or permission. IMO the OP is very talented at Website design but naive about photographers rights.
The OP has three option IMO:
1) Photography the coins himself
2) HIRE a photographer to shoot the coins for him
3) Ask PCGS if he can pay to use their photography ( They may very well decline as it is THEIR RIGHT)
<< <i>
<< <i>Awesome move PCGS. THANK YOU!!!!!!!
You can not go and USE other people photos without permission and payment for services. >>
Permission was asked for and received by the coin owner and TrueView purchaser well before the site became live. >>
I'd like to think it was an honest misunderstanding. The website owner simply asked the wrong people.
PCGS determines acceptable usage, not the coin owner or TrueView purchaser.
<< <i>[
Minor clarification.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
Yes the photographer can SELL his copyright.
He still gets paid this way.
<< <i>
<< <i>[
Minor clarification.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
Yes the photographer can SELL his copyright.
He still gets paid this way. >>
Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>[
Minor clarification.
The law is who ever owns the copyright owns the rights to the photography - not explicitly the photographer or the employer.
Think of when Michael Jackson purchased ownership of the Beatles' songs.
Copyright ownership originates with the photographer who can then assign ownership to anyone. In this particular case, the ownership is assigned to the employer. This is typically through a contractual relationship and not a law. >>
Yes the photographer can SELL his copyright.
He still gets paid this way. >>
Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added. >>
Yes that is true as well.
Kind of hard to make a living as a photographer without getting paid tho.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Though related, payment is really orthogonal to the issue. Copyright owners can assign copyright ownership without financial remuneration. However, if they wish payment, that can be added. >>
Yes that is true as well.
Kind of hard to make a living as a photographer without getting paid tho. >>
With the introduction of digital cameras, there are now many photographers who do not need to depend on photos to make a living, which has increased the number of photos available under very liberal license or easily transferrable copyright ownership.
However, many copyright owners are still businesses and need to make sound business decisions on what is acceptable when deciding on whether to transfer or license such rights.
In this case, it appears our host would like people to sign up for PCGSCoinFacts.com which is a wonderful site.
<< <i>[
With the introduction of digital cameras, there are now many photographers who do not need to depend on photos to make a living, which has increased the number of photos available under very liberal license or easily transferrable copyright ownership. . >>
Bingo
Thank you for responding.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I'm not sure I would use Trueview in the future.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
As was already mentioned, what's the point of getting a coin TruView'ed if you cant use the images as you wish?
"...can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion" - Ron Guth
See Link to PCGS Website
<< <i>According to Ron Guth of PCGS in this article Trueviews:
"...can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion" - Ron Guth
See Link to PCGS Website >>
"can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish" is an interesting quote. That doesn't sound like the current policy. If the policy changed, I'm curious when the change occurred.
<< <i>It's still on PCGS's website so i would assume if it wasn't true they would have corrected it. >>
The article is dated July 27, 2005. Many articles like that on the Internet get superceded over time and are left online for historical purposes. Think press releases.
Still, it appears that there was once more flexibility with using TrueViews than there is today. It seems using TrueViews on a website like the one in question may have been acceptable at some time in the past.
If I had to guess, I would say that a policy change may have occurred some time around or after the launch of PCGSCoinFacts.com on July 27, 2009.
If there was a policy change, it would be good to know when it occurred.
"Our high-quality images will be available directly over the Internet or on a CD that can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion," added Guth. "And once an image has been purchased, it is easily accessible on the Internet for future owners of the coin."
Sounds to me like the images can be used only once purchased.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Perhaps one should read the whole thing in its entirety instead of taking one snippet out of context?
"Our high-quality images will be available directly over the Internet or on a CD that can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion," added Guth. "And once an image has been purchased, it is easily accessible on the Internet for future owners of the coin."
Sounds to me like the images can be used only once purchased. >>
In this case, it seems like the purchasers of the images wanted to use them on the website in question, but that is not allowed. However, it appears that using the images on eBay and other websites may be allowed.
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may be reproduced or published)."
FWIW...
<< <i>From PCGS's submissin forms:
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may be reproduced or published)."
FWIW... >>
At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer).
Since TrueView is a separate service where clients are paying for photos, it would be good to have some "sole discretion" text there as well IMO.
If applied to TrueViews, it would be interesting to know if this text was present in 2005 or added at some later date.
Maybe we can persuade someone to volunteer photographic services (in exchange for free promotion), and thus retain your web work while using images that do not infringe.
<< <i>At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer). >>
From here:
Submission Requirements:
•The TrueView service is available on Raw, Reholder and Regrade services, and is not available on Crossovers.
•The TrueView service must be requested for ALL coins on an order.
•Turnaround time will be increased up to 3 days.
•The submitter must indicate "TrueView" in the "Other" section of the invoice and add the appropriate fees in the "Fee Calculation" section.
it appears images are ordered on the submission form. In that event, it would seem the terms on the back of the form would apply.
<< <i>Why not have some other amazing photographer here from the forums take the photographs? I'm a landscape and nature amateur photographer but really enjoy it as a hobby. I think any coin photographers would feel similarly. I know Phil probably won't get as many submissions due to this but I see payment to other photographers and money that goes right back into our hobby. >>
Not a bad suggestion, but the pics won't look like the ones on the website without shooting them outside of the holder.
<< <i>
<< <i>At first glance, it appears this text applies to photos PCGS takes at their own initiative via the grading service (i.e. not photos specifically ordered by a customer). >>
From here:
Submission Requirements:
•The TrueView service is available on Raw, Reholder and Regrade services, and is not available on Crossovers.
•The TrueView service must be requested for ALL coins on an order.
•Turnaround time will be increased up to 3 days.
•The submitter must indicate "TrueView" in the "Other" section of the invoice and add the appropriate fees in the "Fee Calculation" section.
it appears images are ordered on the submission form. In that event, it would seem the terms on the back of the form would apply. >>
It appears that is a good interpretation. I always thought it would be good to have some explicit information on TrueViews on the submission form.
Given some of the confusion on the recent threads, being more explicit may not be a bad thing.
Absent that, it's good to have these issues cleared up on the message boards.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why not have some other amazing photographer here from the forums take the photographs? I'm a landscape and nature amateur photographer but really enjoy it as a hobby. I think any coin photographers would feel similarly. I know Phil probably won't get as many submissions due to this but I see payment to other photographers and money that goes right back into our hobby. >>
Not a bad suggestion, but the pics won't look like the ones on the website without shooting them outside of the holder. >>
I'd go as far as to say there's a "TrueView look" that I haven't seen with photos from other photographers.
Some people have mentioned some of the photos are overexposed by multiple stops and it's hard to disagree with this on some photos. At the same time, it's hard to argue with the pop the photos have as well. They can be truly gorgeous.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
99
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>The biggest issue is that the TV images are taken when the coins are raw, which avoids all the problems of glare, light diffusion, etc...from plastic slabs. >>
For me, the biggest issue with in-slab shooting is now the prongs which makes TrueViews even more interesting and worthwhile.