...

lasvegasteddy · July 11, 2012 10:12AM

hi,
recently
someone devoted alot of time and effort to create beautiful websites which entailed use of tru-view service
these websites
they inspired myself if not others to add such service to my submissions...i'm sure i'm not alone
they also
brought forth the beauty of pcgs imaging skills with some of the finest examples of coins displayed

please

can you reconsider company position on such websites that inspire/promote the tru-view service

perhaps merely granting use by the person who used such a level of professionalism as to compliment pcgs products so gracefully
there wasn't a profit motive but merely hobby enhancement

i'm sure such free marketing can over-ride any fears as the creator "surely would bind in agreement" as to never produce any disrespectful portrayal or seek any " for profit " application or spam upon such websites

these websites are contained within this thread linked here

100 greatest websites

ArizonaJack · July 11, 2012 10:16AM

<< hi,
recently
someone devoted alot of time and effort to create beautiful websites which entailed use of tru-view service
these websites
they inspired myself if not others to add such service to my submissions...i'm sure i'm not alone
they also
brought forth the beauty of pcgs imaging skills with some of the finest examples of coins displayed

please

can you reconsider company position on such websites that inspire/promote the tru-view service >>

THIS !!!

DonWillis · July 11, 2012 10:54AM

I agree that these are beautiful pictures and the websites are tastefully done.

However, for someone to build a site, or write a book, or base any product on our photos or other intellectual property is not fair to PCGS.

These TrueViews were not purchased by the gentleman publishing them.

PCGS owns the rights to all photos we take. They are beautiful and are available on PCGS Coinfacts.

We do give permission to use photos on a case by case basis as long as they credit PCGS. This is for one or two photos. We do not allow someone to copy photos, or use any other data, on a wholesale basis.

I feel bad for the guy but he went ahead and built the sites and used our photos - then he asked if it was ok.

Sorry but that is the story.

lasvegasteddy · July 11, 2012 11:05AM

thank you don for taking the time to reply too

merely a plea was all and i wasn't aware you or david might of been aware in the first place

hopefully this thread was valued in it's sincerity

i have always valued you and david for giving the forum voice a chance to heard...very respectfully

Zoins · July 11, 2012 11:09AM

Thanks for the prompt and clear reply Don.

I'd like to believe it was an honest mistake on the part of the website owner given that he wrote:

<< I did get permission from the coin owners on use of the photos but didn't realize that I needed permission directly from PCGS until last week. And when I asked PCGS, I was denied. >>

Perhaps it would be good to make it clear that PCGS retains the rights to the photos and not the TrueView clients or coin owners, who the website owner says he did contact.

ArizonaJack · July 11, 2012 11:11AM

It was also mentioned that perhaps CU could take over and maintain the sites. I would be willing to donate a small portion of the cost, I am sure others would as well.

Ahrensdad · July 11, 2012 11:16AM

The creator did a magnificent job. He apparently would be willing to give the site to CU. I certainly think PCGS is within its rights, but it would be a shame to see it go away. Perhaps PCGS can incorporate it into something else they're doing.

Cameonut · July 11, 2012 11:17AM

As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

It would seem to me that I would.

Just asking.

Zoins · July 11, 2012 11:21AM

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

It would seem to me that I would.

Just asking. >>

It seems you won't have any rights to the photos of your coins unless you are specifically granted them. With many photographers, you won't even have rights to make reprints. Some photographers will assign copyright ownership to the client for an additional fee but many will not.

One way to start increasing the ownership rights of coin owners would be to start having coin owners own the rights of images taken of their coins, similar to what they are attempting to do with The Bean in Chicago's Millenium Park, but I'm guessing PCGS and others may decline to photograph coins under such conditions.

WingedLiberty1957 · July 11, 2012 11:22AM

<< 

I agree that these are beautiful pictures and the websites are tastefully done.

However, for someone to build a site, or write a book, or base any product on our photos or other intellectual property is not fair to PCGS.

These TrueViews were not purchased by the gentleman publishing them.

>>

Hello Don,

Thank you so much for responding directly.

First off, when someone writes a book or makes a "product" they usually do it to make money. I totally agree with your objection to that.

However this website I did was not "for-profit", it was an educational site, that only served to promote and drive customers to PCGS. So the beneficiary was PCGS.

You are right that I did not purchase all the TrueViews shown on the site, but I did get permission from the owners of the coins and the purchasers of the photos to use them.

I just didn't realize until last week that I needed to contact PCGS directly about this.

In any case, in terms of being "fair" to PCGS ... I made No money off this at all ... the only entity that profited was PCGS.
I know of at least 5 collectors that sent coins in to PCGS to be graded and photographed BECAUSE of these websites.

I think that is almost the definition of being fair. Isn't it?

<< 

PCGS owns the rights to all photos we take. They are beautiful and are available on PCGS Coinfacts.

>>

Actually that is not true. There is a big hole in the CoinFacts archive. They show NO PHOTOS of RB or BN Mirror Proof Lincolns after about 1950.
And there are some absolutely stunning RB and BN Mirror Proof Lincolns which are not captured by CoinFacts.

<< 

We do give permission to use photos on a case by case basis as long as they credit PCGS.

>>

I always credited PCGS ... I think I mentioned the words PCGS over 200 times on the site.

<< 

This is for one or two photos. We do not allow someone to copy photos, or use any other data, on a wholesale basis.

>>

So the issue was the number of photos I was using (about 100)?

<< 

I feel bad for the guy but he went ahead and built the sites and used our photos - then he asked if it was ok. Sorry but that is the story.

>>

So if I had known, and asked in advance, it would have been approved?

Don't feel bad for me, I am just one amateur coin collector and I'll live.
But I do feel bad for the hobby.

Thanks again for your direct response

ArizonaJack · July 11, 2012 11:28AM

I hope PCGS really considers the options here. Public Relations, legal, importance to collectors, etc. I am sure they will be discussed and many heads will weigh in on this. PCGS, please know that this site is very important to many of us. You own the pics, the site surely can be kept in some way.

DonWillis · July 11, 2012 11:28AM

As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do.

Zoins · July 11, 2012 11:34AM

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do. >>

If a TrueView client has "ownership" rights, then can he or she not grant permission for a website to use the photos?

My thoughts are that perhaps TrueView clients do not have ownership rights, but have a limited set of rights under license from PCGS who retains sole ownership rights?

Just trying to be clear.

WingedLiberty1957 · July 11, 2012 11:47AM

Zoins, Great point. I would love to understand the fine details of this.

astrorat · July 11, 2012 11:48AM

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do. >>

Are you sure, Don? How are "ownership rights" defined? To my understanding the copyright (and attached authority to grant or deny usage) belongs to the photographer.

Zoins · July 11, 2012 11:53AM

<< 

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do. >>

Are you sure, Don? How are "ownership rights" defined? To my understanding the copyright (and attached authority to grant or deny usage) belongs to the photographer. >>

Copyright ownership may originate with the photographer but many employers have their employees assign rights to the firm. There's likely an agreement in place for PCGS photographers to assign rights to PCGS, the company.

scotty1419 · July 11, 2012 11:57AM

Couldnt the operator simply use thumbnails and link to the PCGS sources for each coin?

astrorat · July 11, 2012 12:00PM

<< 

<< 

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do. >>

Are you sure, Don? How are "ownership rights" defined? To my understanding the copyright (and attached authority to grant or deny usage) belongs to the photographer. >>

Copyright ownership may originate with the photographer but many employers have their employees assign rights to the firm. There's likely an agreement in place for PCGS photographers to assign rights to PCGS, the company. >>

True ... I was not trying to get too technical and separate the person taking the image from the firm doing the imaging. PCGS holds the copyright, not the specific shutterbug shooting the image.

blu62vette · July 11, 2012 12:10PM

read the back of the submission form and it may help explain the copyright language.

PCGS holds the copyright, that seems to have been clearly laid out but the purchaser of the images is allowed to use the images. I don't think the purchaser holds the copyright here.

ArizonaJack · July 11, 2012 12:20PM

Let me throw out an ignorant comment that might work......How about a change from the .com to . org and go officialy non profit with coin owners permission?

TwoSides2aCoin · July 11, 2012 12:24PM

There's a silver lining in the cloud. This could be the official Q&A forum.

Zoins · July 11, 2012 12:26PM

<< read the back of the submission form and it may help explain the copyright language.

PCGS holds the copyright, that seems to have been clearly laid out but the purchaser of the images is allowed to use the images. I don't think the purchaser holds the copyright here. >>

This makes sense and matches my thoughts that PCGS owns the copyright and not the TrueView clients.

I think one gray area is the extent to which the client is allowed to use the images. In this case, it appears the purchasers wanted to use the images on the website in question, but that particular usage is not permitted.

It's good to have the limits of the client's usage rights clarified so there's less misunderstanding as done in this thread.

Cameonut · July 12, 2012 12:19AM

<< As a collector who has extensively used the True View service, do I also have ownership rights to the photos that were taken of MY coins and that I paid for?

Yes you do. >>

Don, thanks so much for helping to clarify whether I can use the True View photos that I paid for. One of the reasons why I chose to have Phil take so many photos of my cameos was that when it came time to sell, I had a professional photograph available. I also believe that when True View was first being launched, that this was one of the advantages of getting your coins photographed.

So it sounds like PCGS owns the rights to the photos - fair enough. But is also seems that PCGS is granting a license to use the photos to the person who submitted the coins and paid for the service.

ctf_error_coins · July 12, 2012 2:07AM

Thank you Don.

DoubleEagle59 · July 12, 2012 2:42AM

Maybe if permission was asked first, before the creation of the website, things would be different.

As it stands now, I'm with PCGS on this one.

mkman123 · July 12, 2012 3:12AM

never used trueview, never will. Wingedliberty used this as a tool for collectors and made no money off of it. He was helping the hobby out

Spooly · July 12, 2012 3:17AM

(I'm not speaking for any of the 3 party photographers)

Just go to one of the many 3rd party coin photographer, I bet most could careless if you post pictures of your coins. Or tell them that you want the copyright from your coin pictures. I bet most would even send your coins to PCGS after taking pictures. Let the free market work!

Options.... you always have options.

PennyCollector · July 12, 2012 4:00AM

According to Ron Guth of PCGS in this article on Trueviews:

"...can be used by dealers and auctioneers any way they wish, for print or online advertising, marketing and promotion" - Ron Guth

See Link to PCGS Website

...

Comments