Big upgrade

GoldenEyeNumismatics · July 9, 2012 11:58AM

just found this searching through archives...

PCGS PR66 CAC
NGC PR68 Cameo

TomB · July 9, 2012 12:02PM

Big upgrade with a small time frame.

USMoneylover · July 9, 2012 12:04PM

That made for a nice payday!

Crazy4Coins · July 9, 2012 12:09PM

Wow. That's a big bump. Looks like it could be a case of buying the plastic, not the coin.

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 12:14PM

Not too shabby of a Pay Day there!

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 12:14PM

<< Wow. That's a big bump. Looks like it could be a case of buying the plastic, not the coin. >>

True, Until the buyer tries to get it into PCGS Plastic.

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 12:17PM

Back in '01, it sold for considerably less.

messydesk · July 9, 2012 12:18PM

<< 

<< Wow. That's a big bump. Looks like it could be a case of buying the plastic, not the coin. >>

True, Until the buyer tries to get it into PCGS Plastic. >>

At which time it becomes a case of cursing the plastic.

EXOJUNKIE · July 9, 2012 12:39PM

What really gets my attention (and my goat) is the stark difference in HA's descriptions.

In just two months, this coin went from "just short of a full strike...demonstrates minor weakness" to "richly frosted devices...powerful mirrors," and "decisively struck and virtually flawless."

So let's see ... is it "just short of a full strike" or "decisively struck?" Grrrr.

Are you kidding me?! Different catalogers? Probably...maybe, but it still calls into question their quality control and even their credibility. This is out of control IMO. If I was the first consignor, I'd be ticked.

One must never forget that HA is a business first. Their volume and turnover is astronomically high. They churn out auctions with reckless abandon with a single goal in mind -- $$$.

Buzzybest · July 9, 2012 1:02PM

I have a mutual friend of Steve Chinchay ,the guy in charge of grading across the street. Maybe I'll see how many of my Morgans will upgrade. They're having a special right now.

MidLifeCrisis · July 9, 2012 1:08PM

While EXOJUNKIE makes a good point about HA's descriptions of the coin, the main issue I see is the discrepancy between two "top tier" grading companies. In this case, the lower grade was also independently certified by a third party as accurate.

Wow.

This is a great illustration of the subjectivity of grading.

If there were no records of the previous lower PCGS grade, how many collectors would have accepted the NGC grade as accurate?

I bet many would have.

And since HA's auction archives were available in 2008, how did the same coin almost double in price?

Buzzybest · July 9, 2012 1:11PM

With this much money involved,I smell a Congressional investigation coming! There are many coin collectors in Washington with much influence.

MrEureka · July 9, 2012 1:18PM

I remember reading a QDB article many years ago in which he observed, roughly speaking, that some coins were for investing and some coins were for collecting. He illustrated the concept with the 1873 Proof Seated Quarter with Arrows, saying that even though the coin could bring into five figures, nobody actually spent that type of money for the coin for his collection, but investors would. Seems relevant to this thread, although I'm not quite sure why.

LogPotato · July 9, 2012 1:23PM

God bless those reliant on the TPG's. I hope their money is well spent.

DennisH · July 9, 2012 1:43PM

NGC's infatuation with color is glaring here.
Heritage just looks silly.

TomB · July 9, 2012 2:49PM

<< While EXOJUNKIE makes a good point about HA's descriptions of the coin, the main issue I see is the discrepancy between two "top tier" grading companies. In this case, the lower grade was also independently certified by a third party as accurate.

Wow.

This is a great illustration of the subjectivity of grading.

If there were no records of the previous lower PCGS grade, how many collectors would have accepted the NGC grade as accurate?

I bet many would have.

And since HA's auction archives were available in 2008, how did the same coin almost double in price? >>

I have been hammering about the point written in bold, above, for quite a while. PCGS and NGC have their own, propeirtary grading standards that do not need to perfectly overlap and, in fact, do not perfectly overlap for many grades. My own experience is that as the grade gets higher, the percentage of grading standard overlap between the two services gets smaller. Therefore, this particular coin might very well be a PCGS PF66 and an NGC PR68 at the same time. Be careful out there.

WTCG · July 9, 2012 11:41PM

<< I have a mutual friend of Steve Chinchay ,the guy in charge of grading across the street. Maybe I'll see how many of my Morgans will upgrade. They're having a special right now. >>

Chinchay is the operations guy, not a grader. He is that company's equivalent of Anibal at PCGS.

I state this without any implications, but my experience has shown that whenever special deals are offered my grading success rate tanks.

golden · July 10, 2012 12:36AM

<< NGC's infatuation with color is glaring here.
Heritage just looks silly. >>

georgiacop50 · July 10, 2012 2:27AM

Hilarious!

tradedollarnut · July 10, 2012 2:36AM

One might note that the coin brought almost full PCGS price guide value for the next grade up in the stickered holder.

SeattleSlammer · July 10, 2012 3:55AM

The point made about a big discrepancy in Heritage's descriptions is right on the money.

I wonder if it went to CAC in the NGC slab?

mkman123 · July 10, 2012 4:01AM

I see no problem. We have seen NGC coins being crossed over and upgraded.

I think the important thing is for the coin to be sent to CAC and see what CAC does. If CAC gives it a green bean...........does it mean its a PR66 and a PR68??

CoinJunkie · July 10, 2012 4:28AM

<< One might note that the coin brought almost full PCGS price guide value for the next grade up in the stickered holder. >>

Looks like the coin is worth more without the sticker...

CoinJunkie · July 10, 2012 4:30AM

<< The point made about a big discrepancy in Heritage's descriptions is right on the money.

I wonder if it went to CAC in the NGC slab? >>

If that coin gets a sticker in its current slab, then it got the wrong sticker in its previous one.

johnny9434 · July 10, 2012 5:59AM

<< That made for a nice payday!

>>

a very nice payday

RevDrBlimber · July 10, 2012 6:45AM

One thing Maurice Rosen has found out in his researching the CAC numbers is though the success rate for all coins submitted is somewhat less than half, in the higher grades it goes up so reliability or at least the reliable grading as the numbers get higher is greater; or CAC considers stickering 65 and up coins to be more a part of their successful marketing plan.

So no gold bean for the 66 and someone decided to spin the roulette wheel with $100 walkthroughs at the right point in time. Good research here!

Unknown · July 10, 2012 5:18PM

This content has been removed.

roadrunner · July 11, 2012 12:38AM

This is precisely what was happening from 2004-2008 as the market heated up. The TPG and dealers were in frantic competition to get coins. Buyers wanted gem
type, especially PF68 low pop gem type. If buyers needed coins, then the TPG's tried to help them out. That's how I see it. I agree with TomB's comments as well.
It's not common, but certainly not unusal to see a 2 pt grade swing in PCGS vs. NGC type coins, especially when colorful toning is involved. If the coin was really a low end
67 at the time, PCGS could have easily been a 1/2 pt tight that day, while NGC was a 3/4 pt high. Net effect is 66 to 68. I've had a couple of 2 pt swing coins myself within
a very short time span. The most notable occurred in 1988 when I had an 1838-0 dime purchased raw out of a Stacks auction for MS64 money go NGC 64, PCGS 63, NGC 65.
Imo the true technical grade of the coin at that time was 64+. Had PCGS also given the coin a 64 grade I would have stopped right there. But the 63 grade was sort of a god-send
because it was totally unsaleable at 64 money in that holder. And even raw I wouldn't be able to break even. The offers I got on the coin were at 63 money. So my only option
was to crack it out and "hope" for another 64. Less than 1 month later I sold the coin in the 65 holder over the phone sight-unseen to a major type coin dealer....doubling up.

I was just discussing this same general issue on a PM with a fellow type collector. And I have some very strong suspicions on who upgraded this 1873 25c being as it was only
a couple of months between submissions. In fact I'm pretty confident on who the upgrader was.
This upgrading took place before the final summer peak at 2008 ANA. So the game was still on. And buyers wanted the high # holders as much as the coin.
Crack this baby out today and more than likely it would 66 or 67. The market stunk in 2001 so if this coin brought little then, that's quite expected.
Many really nice gem seated coins tripled or even quintupled in price from 2001 to 2008, particularly those that were graded conservatively the last time around.

MrEureka · July 11, 2012 6:36AM

I wish we would go back to the days of fewer grades where each point won't be a double or at minimum a 50% upcharge

There will always be "liner" coins. And with fewer grades, each point would be worth more, not less.

roadrunner · July 11, 2012 9:01AM

<< I wish we would go back to the days of fewer grades where each point won't be a double or at minimum a 50% upcharge

There will always be "liner" coins. And with fewer grades, each point would be worth more, not less. >>

Most of the forum members weren't even collectors back at that time. I figure "those iconic" days were prior to 1974. Possibly pre-1972. Even though there was no "official"
6 to 9 point MS grading system/price guide at that time, several higher end dealers that I followed were paying double, triple, and quadruple premiums for solid gem,
superb gem, and monster gem type coins. Clearly there was lots of action above the CDN "gem BU" (or MS65) price range. I sort of place the start of the high grade coin
era when Steve Ivy started up his company around 1970-1971 and Jim Halperin was right behind him with NERCG about 2 yrs later. There may have been others but these
two seemed to be the most influential as within a couple of years their operations were pretty large. Probably more than coincidence that in Aug 1971 the USTreasury closed
the gold window and gold prices headed off to the races. Rare coins followed.

joebb21 · July 11, 2012 9:33AM

Im 99% sure I saw this coin today at the FUN Show- where it now resides in a pr68 * holder (no cameo)

Ill check again tomorrow

COALPORTER · July 11, 2012 9:38AM

"the lower grade was also independently certified by a third party as accurate."

No. it was cert. "high end for the grade OR better" .

MidLifeCrisis · July 11, 2012 10:22AM

<< "the lower grade was also independently certified by a third party as accurate."

No. it was cert. "high end for the grade OR better" . >>

OK...high end for the grade.

But it seems to me that "OR better" can't be included; otherwise, it would have received a different color sticker.

Big upgrade

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