1964 Accented hair Kennedy question.

morgansforever · July 8, 2012 5:40AM

Searched the subject I guess I'm not seeing whether it's the AH or not. It doesn't matter no cam or dcam on this one.
The serif is full at the base of the I in LIBERTY at least IMO and the rays are complete on the reverse, mostly.
The dealer I purchased it from said that these diagnostics aren't always present. I thought they were?
Still a nice clean proof set, for $20 bucks and sealed I couldn't go wrong.
Thanks for any help,
Scott

ModCrewman · July 8, 2012 5:52AM

Not an accented hair. Sorry.

coinsarefun · July 8, 2012 5:59AM

<< Not an accented hair. Sorry. >>

I agree, sorry

Caleb · July 8, 2012 6:14AM

<< The dealer I purchased it from said that these diagnostics aren't always present. >>

I would ask the dealer if the diagnostics wern't there then does that mean it is the normal hair varietiy?

Rampage · July 8, 2012 6:15AM

Not an accented hair and the dealer is FOS. If the coin is an accented hair variety, then the diagnostics will always be there.

FullCameo · July 8, 2012 6:19AM

Fantastic pic!

morgansforever · July 8, 2012 6:19AM

<<Not an accented hair and the dealer is FOS. If the coin is an accented hair variety, then the diagnostics will always be there.>>

Maybe he received some bad info, always been fair to me. Has there ever been an AH without these diagnostics?

EDIT: Changed my search words, ended up at Coinfacts. Now I'm starting to see it.
PCGS photo, hope they don't mind. All about the diffusion of knowledge

The more I look at it it seems it's between normal hair and AH, maybe it's my eyes.

My coin on the left, Coinfact pic on the right. What happened to the sideburns in the PCGS pic?

ricko · July 8, 2012 7:24AM

Definitely not AH..... many people, dealers included, seem to have trouble with this variety..... I have cherry-picked several both in B&M's and at coin shows. Cheers, RickO

LanLord · July 8, 2012 7:41AM

<< 
My coin on the left, Coinfact pic on the right. What happened to the sideburns in the PCGS pic?

>>

Your coin has a superior strike to that of the AH example in coin facts. The sideburns really aren't diagnostic there.

coinsarefun · July 8, 2012 7:51AM

One of the easiest ways I look for and you spot it at a glance is the I in LIBERTY (the lower left serif is removed on the die
and can be spotted very easily. Not the only way to determine but I use this way because it is the quickest and easiest way.

I have the red arrows pointing to the missing part of the I

morgansforever · July 8, 2012 7:54AM

<<Your coin has a superior strike to that of the AH example in coin facts. The sideburns really aren't diagnostic there.>>

A superior struck normal hair variety Kennedy proof

Even though it's not what I hoped, no cam or dcam it's still a nice piece.

EDIT: Now my biggest dilemma, is what to do with the 61 and 62 proof sets that I purchased today, that are sealed?
Speaking of which, did these come sealed from the Mint? I wonder if they are really unsearched?

LanceNewmanOCC · July 8, 2012 10:12AM

.
i wonder if those are die gouges under US in trust?
.

Caleb · July 8, 2012 10:26AM

<< EDIT: Now my biggest dilemma, is what to do with the 61 and 62 proof sets that I purchased today, that are sealed?
Speaking of which, did these come sealed from the Mint? I wonder if they are really unsearched? >>

You can alway search for some nice DDOs or DDRs, there are several nice ones.

Or, you could send them to me to search

lasvegasteddy · July 8, 2012 10:33AM

the sideburns can be the pick-up point too

LindeDad · July 8, 2012 11:31AM

That is one well struck regular proof Kennedy may we see the reverse if it is as nice I would think about getting it graded.

BTW the I base and the broken rays are diagnostics of the two dies used for the first run Accented hair coins. Both items were fixed on all the later regular coins.

Caleb · July 8, 2012 12:53PM

JFYI:

Nothing against Coin Facts but if you want to learn about the Accented Hair 1964 Proof issues, there is a senior citizen that post on these boards that has
this web page

Goldbully · July 8, 2012 12:55PM

Our resident expert Russ, will have the final say.....please stay tuned!!

19Lyds · July 8, 2012 1:04PM

<< The dealer I purchased it from said that these diagnostics aren't always present. >>

IF, your dealer said this was an Accented Hair AND made this comment, you SHOULD be very WARY of ANYTHING this dealer sells or tries to sell you as it's fairly obvious that s/he has no idea what s/he's talking about.

19Lyds · July 8, 2012 1:06PM

<< .
i wonder if those are die gouges under US in trust?
. >>

Those are on the cello as the coin was photographed through the US Mint Cello pak.

19Lyds · July 8, 2012 1:09PM

<< <<Not an accented hair and the dealer is FOS. If the coin is an accented hair variety, then the diagnostics will always be there.>>

Maybe he received some bad info, always been fair to me. Has there ever been an AH without these diagnostics?

EDIT: Changed my search words, ended up at Coinfacts. Now I'm starting to see it.
PCGS photo, hope they don't mind. All about the diffusion of knowledge

The more I look at it it seems it's between normal hair and AH, maybe it's my eyes.

My coin on the left, Coinfact pic on the right. What happened to the sideburns in the PCGS pic?

>>

You're simply looking for and trying to validate something that is just not there.

You do have a very nice Kennedy. Possibly 68 judging from the obverse photograph. It's dfefinitely worth the $20 you paid for the entire set but it's simply not an Accented Hair Variety.

morgansforever · July 8, 2012 6:58PM

Here's a quick shot of the reverse, have to head out to work. Just noticed a blemish above the D in UNITED, bummer.
Can't tell if it's a spot or haze, the shot magnifies it though. Now in a flip.
Thanks all for the input.

CEOcoinshopcom · July 9, 2012 2:29AM

The die that had the accent hair, had a broken serif on the "I", ALL of them do, we sell a bunch on our site.
Can't mix and match. Only way, is if there was a "new" accent hair.
Dealers/collectors have been looking for a long time, and have looked at LOTS of sets...... nothing yet.

MilkmanDan · July 9, 2012 2:34AM

Let me lead with by stating I'm no expert on this series, but if the OP's coin shows hair that is more "accented" than the actual variety, what's the point? Maybe it's just a subtle variety such that a really good strike looks very similar, I don't know.

crypto79 · July 9, 2012 2:48AM

isn't there a diagnostic on the REV with the stars and the rays? Come on modern guys show your stuff

LindeDad · July 9, 2012 2:53AM

<< isn't there a diagnostic on the REV with the stars and the rays? Come on modern guys show your stuff >>

Do you mean the broken rays I mentioned?

The OP's coin blown up showing the area were two diagnostics of the AH die are missing.

I know a few know what I mean.

cmerlo1 · July 9, 2012 3:27AM

Never look at the hair. Look for the broken lower left serif on the 'I' in 'LIBERTY'. All AH Kennedy Halves have this.

SanctionII · July 9, 2012 5:35AM

I looked at this thread and then also looked at a 1964 proof set I picked up last Friday that contains an AH Proof Half Dollar (a possible CAM). I looked at the half dollar in my new set. It has the wishbone hair; an "I" that is missing the lower left serif; the broken rays on the reverse; the straight "G" in the FG on the reverse; and has another possible diagnostic.

This other possible diagnostic is the "rounded shield tops" on the reverse.

The left and right corners of the top of the shield on the reverse of my new AH half dollar is different from those on a non AH 1964 proof half dollar. On the non AH half there is a sharp edge marking the point where the flat surface of the face of the shield meets the flat surface of the top and side edges of the shield. Not quite a 90 degree angle, but close. On my new AH half there is no sharp edge at the top left and right corners of the shield. Instead, the flat surface of the front of the shield curves downward towards the side of the shield. There is no precise meeting point of the front and sides of the shield. Instead the front and side surfaces of the shield merge together. Where they merge the surface has a rounded slope.

So for you AH half fans out there in forum land, do all AH proof half dollars have "rounded shield tops" or do some AH half dollars have a shield like the one present on non AH 1964 proof half dollars?

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 5:57AM

"do all AH proof half dollars have "rounded shield tops"...simple answer...no

myself i had an accented hair obverse
mated with 2nd type of reverse

have seen the other way around too

i was not the 1st to discover or own such an example

hey kevin
do you see what i reference too
the a/h...the difference in sideburns

myself knowing the story behind jackie O'S request of dies be changed as it looked like he needed a haircut
well the 1st dies a/h
he had groomed sideburn

then they changed the dies to appease jackie o
and one of the changes included
he now needed a haircut at the sideburn

it is a pick up point for cherry picking these if the other indicators are obscure in an image

SanctionII · July 9, 2012 6:16AM

LVT:

I just looked at my new AH half and a non AH half. The hair of the sideburn and the hair over the portion of the top of the ear closest to the face of JFK on the AH half are weak in appearance compared to the same hair on the non AH half. A very obvious difference. I do not know if the difference results from a weaker strike for the AH or whether the strike is the same but the master die was modified in a manner where on the subsequently produced non AH half dollar this portion of the hair was strengthened and made more prominent.

Good eye.

Caleb · July 9, 2012 6:16AM

<< myself knowing the story behind jackie O'S request of dies be changed as it looked like he needed a haircut
well the 1st dies a/h
he had groomed sideburn

then they changed the dies to appease jackie o
and one of the changes included
he now needed a haircut at the sideburn >>

I think you might have the story backwards

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 6:26AM

"I think you might have the story backwards"

please elaborate

my understanding was jackie o was invited to see first hand the new half dollar in belated hubby's honor
and she had made a statement incuring the fresh coins looked like he needed a hair cut
so they changed the dies...in her honor

but
if you know a different story
please inform not only me

accented hair variety were the first coins struck
then dies were changed

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 6:31AM

"The first Kennedy Half Dollars minted were proofs coined in early 1964. Using the original design, these coins had what would be termed "Accented Hair." For some reason, the design was modified after the first production. It is rumored that the former first lady, Jacqueline Kennedy, disliked the heavy hair lines above the ear. Another motive may have been to weaken the design for production purposes. Regardless, the Kennedy Half Dollar was extremely popular with collectors and the general public. Proof set sales were high and in late January, early February, the circulation-issue coins were released."

from this link
a/h kennedy link

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 6:39AM

<< I looked at this thread and then also looked at a 1964 proof set I picked up last Friday that contains an AH Proof Half Dollar (a possible CAM). I looked at the half dollar in my new set. It has the wishbone hair; an "I" that is missing the lower left serif; the broken rays on the reverse; the straight "G" in the FG on the reverse; and has another possible diagnostic.

This other possible diagnostic is the "rounded shield tops" on the reverse.

The left and right corners of the top of the shield on the reverse of my new AH half dollar is different from those on a non AH 1964 proof half dollar. On the non AH half there is a sharp edge marking the point where the flat surface of the face of the shield meets the flat surface of the top and side edges of the shield. Not quite a 90 degree angle, but close. On my new AH half there is no sharp edge at the top left and right corners of the shield. Instead, the flat surface of the front of the shield curves downward towards the side of the shield. There is no precise meeting point of the front and sides of the shield. Instead the front and side surfaces of the shield merge together. Where they merge the surface has a rounded slope.

So for you AH half fans out there in forum land, do all AH proof half dollars have "rounded shield tops" or do some AH half dollars have a shield like the one present on non AH 1964 proof half dollars? >>

With no intention of demeaning your post Kevin, no other diagnostics are really needed for an Accented Hair Kennedy.

There are in fact, multiple Accented Hair Die Varieties for the obverse (CONECA shows 9) and the reverse (CONECA shows 9) but all have the missing serifed "I" and the wishbone hair AND since the variety on the Obverse, adding diagnostics for the Reverse seems to be a mute point.

Todate, the Accented Hair Obverse (ODV-001) has only been found paired with the same Reverse Die (RDV-001) however that Reverse Die (RDV-001) has also been paired with non-Accented Hair Obverses (ODV-002).

Caleb · July 9, 2012 6:58AM

<< "I think you might have the story backwards"

please elaborate

my understanding was jackie o was invited to see first hand the new half dollar in belated hubby's honor
and she had made a statement incuring the fresh coins looked like he needed a hair cut
so they changed the dies...in her honor

but
if you know a different story
please inform not only me

accented hair variety were the first coins struck
then dies were changed >>

You know how a story gets turned around. When you have a room full of people and you whisper a story to one person and have him repeat it to the next person and have them tell it to the next and so on and so on. I think you will find out that the same thing happened here.

The best way to learn something is to ask or get the information from someone that was there.

On April 30, 1964, Miss Adams received her answers from the acting superintendent of the Philadelphia Mint which included the written “Reminiscences on the Creation of the Kennedy Half Dollar” by Gilroy Roberts and Frank Gasparro. From Mr. Roberts’ report, signed and dated April 29, 1964:

The following week, December 15th, Miss Adams requested my presence in Washington to discuss the new Half Dollar with her and with other Treasury Department officials.

Both sides of the trial strikes received very favorable comment; however, Secretary of the Treasury Dillon wished to have Mrs. Kennedy’s opinion and wanted me to accompany him at that time. On December 17th, we met Mrs. Kennedy and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Mrs. Kennedy was favorably impressed with the design on both sides of the coin but felt it would be an improvement if the part in the hair, on the portrait, was less pronounced and more accents were added. They also had in mind a design showing a full figure or half figure of the late President. There was simply not enough time to create new designs and medals, get approvals, etc. and have the new coin in production by January, 1964. I strongly advocated the simplicity and directness of a profile portrait as being the best possible arrangement for a handsome, outstanding coin whose beauty would endure and there could be no doubt as to the identity of the subject.

Mrs. Kennedy’s suggestions were carried out on the intermediate size and another trial die was made for the obverse. New trial strikes were prepared. Secretary of the Treasury Dillon wanted to see this second trial piece and on December 27th, I flew to West Palm Beach where the Secretary and Mrs. Dillon inspected the strikes. They both felt that Mrs. Kennedy’s wishes had been complied with and in their opinion, the coin was very handsome. It was decided to proceed with tooling up for production. The Congressional Act authorizing the Kennedy Half Dollar was approved December 30, 1963.

So you see, according to Gilroy Roberts, who was there, Jackie wanted the “part” in the hair less pronounced and more accents added.

Caleb · July 9, 2012 7:01AM

If you want to read Roberts' and Gasparro's complete statements, let me know and I will point you in the right direction.

Caleb · July 9, 2012 7:04AM

<< Todate, the Accented Hair Obverse (ODV-001) has only been found paired with the same Reverse Die (RDV-001) however that Reverse Die (RDV-001) has also been paired with non-Accented Hair Obverses (ODV-002). >>

Lee,

A good example of this is the 1964 DDR-007 and DDR-008. Both die varieties had an obverse die change during production so in order to get a complete set you have to have both varieties each with an accented hair and normal hair

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 7:13AM

caleb

kool information posted there
i stand corrected

thank you and sooo noted

SanctionII · July 9, 2012 7:18AM

Lee:

Thanks for your input. My prior reply illustrates my limited knowledge of the subject matter. I need to read up on Kennedy half dollars. What is great about the forums is the amount of knowledge available, for free. Your knowledge is a prime example. Thanks again.

Caleb · July 9, 2012 7:19AM

If you want to read the whole document, go to this link and you can press either the PDF or Word format. (The PDF is the actual signed copy and is neat).

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 7:36AM

<< If you want to read the whole document, go to this link and you can press either the PDF or Word format. (The PDF is the actual signed copy and is neat). >>

great official article there...thanks...you bet i read it...

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 7:39AM

<< If you want to read the whole document, go to this link and you can press either the PDF or Word format. (The PDF is the actual signed copy and is neat). >>

Wow!

"Shortly after the tragedy of President Kennedy’s death, November 22, 1963, Miss Eva Adams, the Director of the Mint, telephoned me here at the Philadelphia Mint and explained that serious consideration was being given to placing President Kennedy’s portrait on a new design U. S. silver coin and that the Quarter Dollar, Half Dollar or the One Dollar were under discussion. "

I cannot help but wonder if a Kennedy Dollar coin would have been popular AND acceptable as a circulating piece?

Caleb · July 9, 2012 8:29AM

<< "The first Kennedy Half Dollars minted were proofs coined in early 1964. Using the original design, these coins had what would be termed "Accented Hair." For some reason, the design was modified after the first production. It is rumored that the former first lady, Jacqueline Kennedy, disliked the heavy hair lines above the ear. Another motive may have been to weaken the design for production purposes. Regardless, the Kennedy Half Dollar was extremely popular with collectors and the general public. Proof set sales were high and in late January, early February, the circulation-issue coins were released."

from this link
a/h kennedy link >>

I jsut read the NGC article written in 2007. I think Roberts' and Gasparro's statements were more timely to the event in question (April 1964), plus the fact that Roberts acompanied Secretary Dillon to the meeting where Mrs. Kennedy made her comments, I'm not going to put much stock into the NGC article (But that is just me, feel free to believe the NGC version if you want).

lasvegasteddy · July 9, 2012 8:42AM

"I'm not going to put much stock into the NGC article (But that is just me, feel free to believe the NGC version if you want)"
that makes 2 of us...

UtahCoin · July 9, 2012 8:48AM

<< Not an accented hair and the dealer is FOS. If the coin is an accented hair variety, then the diagnostics will always be there. >>

What he said!

morgansforever · July 9, 2012 9:50AM

Thanks for all the input. I was well aware of the missing serif and broken rays, maybe the quality of strike is what mislead me.
Again thanks for all the valuable information,
Scott

ProofArtworkonCircs · July 9, 2012 1:28PM

Note 1) It was the Secretary of the Treasury's idea to get Mrs. Kennedy input.
2) It was the Secretary of theTreasury's idea not to give her a second chance for input.
3 ) I don't think Mrs. Kennedy had anything to do with the accented hair variety. Note both varieties have the hair part much reduced
as compared to the previous presidential medals and the most recent halves. Both types were after Mrs. Kennedy's suggestions.

19Lyds · July 9, 2012 4:20PM

<< 

<< "The first Kennedy Half Dollars minted were proofs coined in early 1964. Using the original design, these coins had what would be termed "Accented Hair." For some reason, the design was modified after the first production. It is rumored that the former first lady, Jacqueline Kennedy, disliked the heavy hair lines above the ear. Another motive may have been to weaken the design for production purposes. Regardless, the Kennedy Half Dollar was extremely popular with collectors and the general public. Proof set sales were high and in late January, early February, the circulation-issue coins were released."

from this link
a/h kennedy link >>

I jsut read the NGC article written in 2007. I think Roberts' and Gasparro's statements were more timely to the event in question (April 1964), plus the fact that Roberts acompanied Secretary Dillon to the meeting where Mrs. Kennedy made her comments, I'm not going to put much stock into the NGC article (But that is just me, feel free to believe the NGC version if you want). >>

I'll go with the Roberts Gasparro accounts since it appears that NGC simply reworded the original rumor. Sorry.

Perhaps Caleb should forward the Roberts/Gasparro accounts from the US Mints web site to NGC so that they can correct their article.

1964 Accented hair Kennedy question.

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