Conserved by NCS (link added)

JimDepot · July 1, 2012 2:25AM

There is a modern coin I am looking at on ebay and the seller says it has been conserved by NCS.

Should I run away?

Would NCS conservation cause a problem for a PCGS crossover?

Jim

coinbuf · July 1, 2012 2:31AM

Well without a pic of the coin in question its impossible to answer your question. I've seen many conserved coins that look much better after conservation, but its a guess what any TPG will do/say about any coin sent their way. So in short there's no right or wrong answer to your questions, mabey yes and mabey no.

MidLifeCrisis · July 1, 2012 2:45AM

Run away.

lcoopie · July 1, 2012 2:49AM

maybe

TomB · July 1, 2012 2:50AM

Conservation could be as mild as a simple dipping. Therefore, it depends.

phnatacc · July 1, 2012 2:51AM

Modern coin in an NCS holder is not something I'd want to own.

Modern coin that has been conserved by NCS and now sits in an NGC "no problem" holder - I'd have "no problem" with.

JimDepot · July 1, 2012 2:55AM

<< Modern coin in an NCS holder is not something I'd want to own.

Modern coin that has been conserved by NCS and now sits in an NGC "no problem" holder - I'd have "no problem" with. >>

NGC holder.

MidLifeCrisis · July 1, 2012 3:02AM

<< Conservation could be as mild as a simple dipping. Therefore, it depends. >>

<< Modern coin that has been conserved by NCS and now sits in an NGC "no problem" holder - I'd have "no problem" with. >>

These answers illustrate why we continue to have a problem with dipping and doctoring in the hobby.

I think collectors would be far better off if a lot more of us started to say "No! I will not buy that coin because it's been messed with."

Instead, collectors perpetuate this problem for themselves by continuing to buy these coins. The dealers are only giving the customers what the customers are willing to buy.

It's a modern coin; therefore, safe to assume it's not rare.

I think you should find another one.

coinbuf · July 1, 2012 3:14AM

<< 

<< Conservation could be as mild as a simple dipping. Therefore, it depends. >>

<< Modern coin that has been conserved by NCS and now sits in an NGC "no problem" holder - I'd have "no problem" with. >>

These answers illustrate why we continue to have a problem with dipping and doctoring in the hobby.

I think collectors would be far better off if a lot more of us started to say "No! I will not buy that coin because it's been messed with."

Instead, collectors perpetuate this problem for themselves by continuing to buy these coins. The dealers are only giving the customers what the customers are willing to buy.

It's a modern coin; therefore, safe to assume it's not rare.

I think you should find another one. >>

Theres nothing wrong with haveing a professional conserve a coin to remove a small bit of debris, or matter like PVC with a quick dip. This type of action does not damage the coin if done correctly and prevents the coin from being damaged. This is not doctoring and imo should not have any affect on the coins collectablity and poesses no threat to the hobby.

MidLifeCrisis · July 1, 2012 3:19AM

<< Theres nothing wrong with haveing a professional conserve a coin to remove a small bit of debris, or matter like PVC with a quick dip. This type of action does not damage the coin if done correctly and prevents the coin from being damaged. This is not doctoring and imo should not have any affect on the coins collectablity and poesses no threat to the hobby. >>

Even if I agreed with you, I would still want to see such conservation only used on truly rare coins...not on coins which have thousands of examples available without the need for conservation.

mbogoman · July 1, 2012 3:37AM

FWIW, I have seen pictures of extremely hazy modern silver proofs that come back from NCS/NGC looking like the day they arrived from the mint. I think they even use one in the examples of "what we can do for you" at NCS.

DHeath · July 1, 2012 3:41AM

It's a modern coin; therefore, safe to assume it's not rare.

In terms of rarity, which scale do you rely on: Sheldon, Marsh, Pollock, Bowers, etc.? Also, do you exclude condition rarity? How about die marriages and varieties? What extant population is sufficiently rare that you'd support conservation of an impaired coin? Would your definition extend to most of the coinage of the 19th century? What is modern? Is it all coins post-1836? Any good rule of thumb must be properly situated in a context.

coinbuf · July 1, 2012 3:54AM

I beleive that you and I must agree to disagree on this subject.

MidLifeCrisis · July 1, 2012 3:57AM

<< In terms of rarity, which scale do you rely on: Sheldon, Marsh, Pollock, Bowers, etc.? Also, do you exclude condition rarity? How about die marriages and varieties? What extant population is sufficiently rare that you'd support conservation of an impaired coin? Would your definition extend to most of the coinage of the 19th century? What is modern? Is it all coins post-1836? Any good rule of thumb must be properly situated in a context.

>>

Well, if I were king for a day...I'd have to put some serious thought into this. But off the top of my head, i.e. without any serious thought:

I'd use the Sheldon scale.

I would exclude condition rarities.

I would include die marriages and varieties.

I would support conservation on coins which are at least R4 (population estimated at 76-200), regardless of century or era.

I consider coins minted since 1964 to be modern. But that wouldn't matter if they were at least R4.

I think that would be a good start to this "policy".

MidLifeCrisis · July 1, 2012 3:58AM

<< I beleive that you and I must agree to disagree on this subject. >>

Fair enough. No worries.

DHeath · July 1, 2012 4:01AM

Thank you for allowing me to pull your leg a little. It is a pretty sensible rule you've described.

keets · July 1, 2012 7:19AM

PM sent, please let us know what you think of the answer.

mkman123 · July 1, 2012 8:36AM

what coin is it? Why would you want to crossover? leave it alone!

PerryHall · July 1, 2012 8:38AM

<< There is a modern coin I am looking at on ebay and the seller says it has been conserved by NCS.

Should I run away?

Would NCS conservation cause a problem for a PCGS crossover?

Jim >>

We need more information before we can answer your questions.

What was wrong with the coin?

What waas done to conserve it?

What does the coin now look like?

JimDepot · July 1, 2012 11:17PM

1994 P SP70

On the fence about bidding now as I won 2 other Jeffersons last night and cash is tight.

I was not going to try and cross, just wondering about NCS conservation.

I pulled up the certification number ATS, better pics, but there is nothing about NCS conservation.

The (truthful) seller stated in the description that it had been conserved, other than that, is there any way to know if a coin has been conserved?

Others have said it probably had toning or haze removed and I tend to agree.

Thanks, Jim

MidLifeCrisis · July 2, 2012 2:21AM

With this new information there are a few more factors to consider:

SP 70 - that's neat; but since it's NGC and since it was conserved, is it really a 70? I doubt it. I would be very surprised if it crossed at the same grade to PCGS (especially after the publicity this thread has given it).

Rank #44 100 Greatest U. S. Modern Coins - that's also neat; but why does it hold that ranking? Is it the SP status? The 70 grade? Or is it the nickel itself; i.e., something about the design that gives it that rank regardless of grade?

The auction description says population 96. Is that the population of NGC graded coins? What's the PCGS population?

96 is a low number but it does show that others are out there. I suspect this is a fairly specialized collecting area. What have others sold for? I think you can get another one (unconserved) with a little patience and effort.

Final answer - walk away.

braddick · July 2, 2012 2:28AM

I like the fact it's been professionally conserved as now I don't need to worry that is will turn in the holder.

I see no reason why a modern coin, professionally conserved can't garner the 70 grade.
(On a side note: I don't think PCGS crosses 70 coins, so that's a moot point.)

MidLifeCrisis · July 2, 2012 2:34AM

So I went back and finished reading the auction description which states that 167,703 of these Coin and Currency Sets were sold.

If one of these nickels was included in each set, then this nickel is not a rare coin.

Why settle for one you know has been conserved?

michiganboy · July 2, 2012 2:44AM

I think PCGS will holder it, but not at a 70. I think if you are gonna buy it it should stay in the holder its in.

DHeath · July 2, 2012 2:53AM

These tend to develop a dark golden tone, often more pronounced on one side. I'd imagine that's why the coin was conserved.

Zoins · July 2, 2012 3:21AM

I've been seeing more sellers posting NGC certified coins with note mentioning that it's been conserved by NCS. Since NGC doesn't mention the conservation in their grading, I figured the sellers mention it as a positive and that certain buyers also see it as a positive.

I haven't talked to any of the sellers but had assumed that it basically meant the coin was "professionally" treated with acetone or some other very common practice that one could assume with other slabbed moderns. For some moderns such as ASEs, it may be preferable to have a slabbed coin that was treated by acetone vs. not.

Dennis88 · July 3, 2012 4:03PM

This practice seems to have started with the Chinese, who tend to prefer NGC and who send the majority of their coins to NCS first.

I see it as a plus, if done correctly. Generally I don't suspect it to be more than a quick acetone dip to "conserve" the coin.

One does have to remember that most of the Chinese Mint packaging contains PVC, which does make a difference.

Dennis

frnklnlvr · July 3, 2012 9:01PM

<< I've been seeing more sellers posting NGC certified coins with note mentioning that it's been conserved by NCS. Since NGC doesn't mention the conservation in their grading, I figured the sellers mention it as a positive and that certain buyers also see it as a positive. >>

I agree. I'm sure some sellers would keep this to themselves.

I have no problem with owning a coin that's been properly conserved if doing so would prevent future damage; ie PVC, improper dipping, etc. IMO there's a distinct difference in this type of conservation and coin doctoring. However, I can understand how some collectors wouldn't want to own such coins.

Here's a Franklin I recently sent to ANACS for crossover from a PCGS Genuine. I expected it not to grade but ANACS conserved the coin and graded it problem-free which I was happy about.

PerryHall · July 3, 2012 9:28PM

<< 1994 P SP70

On the fence about bidding now as I won 2 other Jeffersons last night and cash is tight.

I was not going to try and cross, just wondering about NCS conservation.

I pulled up the certification number ATS, better pics, but there is nothing about NCS conservation.

The (truthful) seller stated in the description that it had been conserved, other than that, is there any way to know if a coin has been conserved?

Others have said it probably had toning or haze removed and I tend to agree.

Thanks, Jim >>

Looks like a nice coin. NCS knows what they are doing and you can be sure they properly neutalized whatever they used to remove the haze. At least the seller was honest enough to say that it was conserved.

TomB · July 4, 2012 2:02AM

I imagine the coin has been dipped by NCS. This issue is commonly found in OGP with light to medium depth plum and gold toning that some folks find attractive and others dislike. Personally, I find the coins with the plum and gold toning more attractive, but I guess that isn't much of a shock to most others.

segoja · July 4, 2012 4:24AM

PCGS will only cross a NGC 70 if you agree to a grade of 69 or better.

There is a big premium for 70's, and the chances of an NGC coin making a 70 at PCGS are not 100%, so be careful

Why not wait until a PCGS coin comes on the market if you want a perfect coin?

PerryHall · July 4, 2012 4:42AM

<< PCGS will only cross a NGC 70 if you agree to a grade of 69 or better.

There is a big premium for 70's, and the chances of an NGC coin making a 70 at PCGS are not 100%, so be careful

Why not wait until a PCGS coin comes on the market if you want a perfect coin? >>

I think you mean "or less".

joeykoins · July 4, 2012 5:58AM

I picked up a NCS detail 1803 1/2 pence Georgian at a show for only 9$, can't go wrong for that price, huh?

Zoins · July 4, 2012 6:32AM

<< 

<< Conservation could be as mild as a simple dipping. Therefore, it depends. >>

<< Modern coin that has been conserved by NCS and now sits in an NGC "no problem" holder - I'd have "no problem" with. >>

These answers illustrate why we continue to have a problem with dipping and doctoring in the hobby. >>

The relationship between dipping and doctoring is interesting.

Regarding the efforts to stop doctoring, the impression I get is that people that would like to do something about doctoring don't consider dipping to be doctoring.

At the same time, it seems that others who wish to slow efforts against doctoring bring up dipping as a way to suggest it's difficult to tackle other forms of doctoring such as putty, lasers, etc.

Because of this, I've come to view dipping as a defense that some like to use to justify inaction on the more insidious problems in the hobby.

Zoins · July 4, 2012 6:35AM

<< I like the fact it's been professionally conserved as now I don't need to worry that is will turn in the holder.

I see no reason why a modern coin, professionally conserved can't garner the 70 grade.
(On a side note: I don't think PCGS crosses 70 coins, so that's a moot point.) >>

I believe this view is gaining popularity with moderns where professional conservation is seen as a postive, proactive, preventive measure rather than a negative, reactionary one.

This has been suggested for ASEs to prevent milk spots on these forums. I do wonder if any top TPG 70 ASEs have been professionally treated with acetone.

Conserved by NCS (link added)

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