OT: ORR or Gretzky in his PRIME

Garabaldi · May 26, 2012 12:56AM

Might as well throw a little hockey into this prime debate.

TNP777 · May 26, 2012 12:59AM

Prime (or a variation of the word) appears on the front page 18 times. You, sir, need to play by the rules and edit your title. Otherwise, nobody will take your serious question seriously.

mlbfan2 · May 26, 2012 1:05AM

This belongs in the sporrts forrum.

Tomi · May 26, 2012 1:55AM

Orr. He was a defenseman who won scoring titles. Wayne only played offense. Orr did everything at the highest level. All you have to do is go to Youtube and watch video of Orr and you'll see why he was the best. He did it all.

Garabaldi · May 26, 2012 2:01AM

<< Prime (or a variation of the word) appears on the front page 18 times. You, sir, need to play by the rules and edit your title. Otherwise, nobody will take your serious question seriously.

>>

My bad

ThoseBackPages · May 26, 2012 2:23AM

Orr changed the way D men play the game

milbroco · May 27, 2012 10:33AM

I am no hockey expert and never really saw Orr play so I would go with Gretzky.

Now I have a question. How many goals were scored against the Bruins when Orr decided to go on the offense?

I am thinking the Bruins had many goals against them when Orr abandoned his position. But like I said, I am no expert by any means and please let me know if my thinking may be inaccurate.

Bob

ThoseBackPages · May 27, 2012 10:45AM

<< I am no hockey expert and never really saw Orr play so I would go with Gretzky.

Now I have a question. How many goals were scored against the Bruins when Orr decided to go on the offense?

I am thinking the Bruins had many goals against them when Orr abandoned his position. But like I said, I am no expert by any means and please let me know if my thinking may be inaccurate.

Bob >>

his +/- was +597 for his career.

that means that his team scored 597 more times when he was on the ice, then they gave up.

in 1970 alone, he was a +124

Garabaldi · May 27, 2012 10:49AM

<< I am no hockey expert and never really saw Orr play so I would go with Gretzky.

Now I have a question. How many goals were scored against the Bruins when Orr decided to go on the offense?

I am thinking the Bruins had many goals against them when Orr abandoned his position. But like I said, I am no expert by any means and please let me know if my thinking may be inaccurate.

Bob >>

I guess if you go by that logic, you could say the same about a forward who does not back check.

tsalems1 · May 27, 2012 10:55AM

Bobby Orr hands down...
These numbers from a D-man are SICK!

If he didnt have the knee injuries, who knows what his overall numbers would have been. I will also say, Orr did have some great players around him, but Gretzky had better (hands down!)
46 goals in 1974-75! 139 points in 70-71, These numbers were unheard of back then. He led the NHL in scoring twice! Also a 3 time league MVP As a defensman!!
If you question his defense, he was a 8 time James Norris Trophy winner as the BEST Defensman in the league and it looks like he only played 9 full seasons

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1962-63 Oshawa Generals OHA 0 6 13 19 0
1963-64 Oshawa Generals OHA 56 29 43 72 0
1964-65 Oshawa Generals OHA 56 34 59 93 0
1965-66 Oshawa Generals OHA 47 38 56 94 92
1966-67 Boston Bruins NHL 61 13 28 41 102 -- -- -- -- --
1967-68 Boston Bruins NHL 46 11 20 31 63 4 0 2 2 2
1968-69 Boston Bruins NHL 67 21 43 64 133 10 1 7 8 10
1969-70 Boston Bruins NHL 76 33 87 120 125 14 9 11 20 14
1970-71 Boston Bruins NHL 78 37 102 139 91 7 5 7 12 10
1971-72 Boston Bruins NHL 76 37 80 117 106 15 5 19 24 19
1972-73 Boston Bruins NHL 63 29 72 101 99 5 1 1 2 7
1973-74 Boston Bruins NHL 74 32 90 122 82 16 4 14 18 28
1974-75 Boston Bruins NHL 80 46 89 135 101 3 1 5 6 2
1975-76 Boston Bruins NHL 10 5 13 18 22 -- -- -- -- --
1976-77 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 20 4 19 23 25 -- -- -- -- --
1977-78 Did Not Play Ind 0 0 0 0 0
1978-79 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 6 2 2 4 4 -- -- -- -- --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NHL Totals 657 270 645 915 953 74 26 66 92 92

jackstraw · May 27, 2012 10:59AM

Gretzky by far heck I would take Mario Lemieux in his prime over Orr.

tsalems1 · May 27, 2012 10:59AM

Orr plus/minus winner a record 6 times!

Correct Thosebackpages... "1970 alone, he was a +124"

124 is the All Time best for +/-

CARDSANDCOINS · May 27, 2012 11:16AM

#4 Bobby Orr,
at 14 years old it was said he was ready to play in the NHL
Took the Bruins from last to 1st in 4 years
Led the league in scoring as a defenseman
And as a signing bonus the Bruins agreed to stucco his mom's house!

chaz43 · May 27, 2012 12:13PM

Eventhough I hate Boston sports teams (from when I was a little kid), Yankees were my second favorite team and Phillies my first......I would have to say ORR. chaz

chaz43 · May 27, 2012 12:15PM

<< Gretzky by far heck I would take Mario Lemieux in his prime over Orr. >>

You don't know hockey my friend. A true hockey guy who played the game for many years like myself knows the value of defense. That is what wins CUPS. chaz

shagrotn77 · May 27, 2012 12:18PM

Gretzky, without question.

shagrotn77 · May 27, 2012 12:21PM

<< You don't know hockey my friend. A true hockey guy who played the game for many years like myself knows the value of defense. That is what wins CUPS. chaz >>

Gretzky won twice as many Cups as Orr.

tsalems1 · May 27, 2012 12:46PM

<< 

<< You don't know hockey my friend. A true hockey guy who played the game for many years like myself knows the value of defense. That is what wins CUPS. chaz >>

Gretzky won twice as many Cups as Orr. >>

Gretzky played more than twice as many years!

NVbaseball · May 27, 2012 12:56PM

Best hockey player of All-Time is much like best basketball player of All-Time. In basketball it is Jordan, then everyone else; in hockey it is Gretzky, then everyone else

But when you modify the question to only be PRIME, it comes down to how it is interpreted. While Gretzky's PRIME started in 70s and lasted into the 90s, Orr's best seasons were better even if only for nine years

Tomi · May 27, 2012 12:57PM

5 Orrs will beat 5 of anyone else. Wayne would not have lasted playing in the 50's and 60's. He would have not been protected like he was (Semenko). His career would have lasted less than Orr's. He was once cross checked by someone and that player never played a NHL game again after that. He was the most PROTECTED player from any sport. Orr fought all of his fights himself. He was tested in his rookie year and no one ever messed with him after that.
The Bruins wanted Orr to play in the NHL at 17 but had to wait a year because the rule was that you had to be at least 18. The guy changed the way the game has been played forever, no one else can lay claim to something like that.

78248 · May 27, 2012 3:32PM

anyone NOT "picking Gretzky, is just trying to make others think they are "bringing it from the inside"

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy ... and I dont even need the other 3

Orr was the biggest Hype in ALL of sports

vladguerrero · May 27, 2012 3:51PM

Orr? lol

pmcollectour · May 27, 2012 9:07PM

I answer this as someone who enjoyed watching both players, and enjoys collecting both players.
I saw a lot more of Gretzky, but I did see a little of Orr. Television coverage of hockey increased when Gretzky played.

I hate to say one was better then the other, because both were fantastic.

The only way I can answer this question is like a person said before. If you put 5 Orr's on the ice against 5 Gretzky's, the 5 Orr's
would probably win the games most of the time.

Bobby also did what he did on bad knees. Gretzky played hockey with two good legs. Orr played on one good leg. Orr was having knee
surgeries beginning at the age of 20 I believe.

I don't like saying anyone was better then Gretzky, because I've never seen a better ambassador for the sport then Wayne Gretzky.

Mario comes in third. Everyone else is in a distant fourth. Larry Robinson may be in a close fourth, but that's for people who understand defense.

Garabaldi · May 28, 2012 5:20AM

<< anyone NOT "picking Gretzky, is just trying to make others think they are "bringing it from the inside"

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy ... and I dont even need the other 3

Orr was the biggest Hype in ALL of sports >>

You lost me at Bossy

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 5:26AM

<< 

<< anyone NOT "picking Gretzky, is just trying to make others think they are "bringing it from the inside"

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy ... and I dont even need the other 3

Orr was the biggest Hype in ALL of sports >>

You lost me at Bossy >>

I read that and was going to respond to it and then I said to myself, why bother.
Clearly he just doesnt like Orr/Boston or he doesnt know hockey

jackstraw · May 28, 2012 5:27AM

Gretzky was a lot tougher then people give him credit for. Just because he couldn't fight doesn't make him a puss
or protected. Give me a break you don't think the Islanders tried to hurt him every chance they got? Yup Potvin, Trottier,
Gillies and Nystrom definitely took it easy on him because he was the Great Gretzky. If you think so then you were not
watching in the early to mid 80's.. He was the best east west skater I ever saw and he had a pretty decent shot. He was
the greatest passer of all time. He made so many people better then they were. Bernie Nicholls? Glen Anderson?
Jari Kurri? He has more assists then anyone has points? He took a sorry Kings team to the finals with a bad back!!
Orr doesn't come close to Gretzky's accomplishments.. Oh and by the way the Hartford Whalers wanted to sign Gretzky at 17
but didn't because they were afraid it would hurt their chances on a NHL bid... Should I continue? Yup Gretzky couldn't have played
in the 50's and 60's <laughing> that's the statement of the year..... Still would take Lemieux 2nd.....
Um if you had 5 Gretzky's and 2 played defence and 3 played forward the 5 Orr's wouldn't ever touch the puck?
Each one would have 50+ goals and 100 assists.... <still laughing>

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 5:31AM

<< Gretzky was a lot tougher then people give him credit for. Just because he couldn't fight doesn't make him a puss
or protected. Give me a break you don't think the Islanders tried to hurt him every chance they got? Yup Potvin, Trottier,
Gillies and Nystrom definitely took it easy on him because he was the Great Gretzky. If you think so then you were not
watching in the early to mid 80's.. He was the best east west skater I ever saw and he had a pretty decent shot. He was
the greatest passer of all time. He made so many people better then they were. Bernie Nicholls? Glen Anderson?
Jari Kurri? He has more assists then anyone has points? He took a sorry Kings team to the finals with a bad back!!
Orr doesn't come close to Gretzky's accomplishments.. Oh and by the way the Hartford Whalers wanted to sign Gretzky at 17
but didn't because they were afraid it would hurt their chances on a NHL bid... Should I continue? Yup Gretzky couldn't have played
in the 50's and 60's <laughing> that's the statement of the year..... Still would take Lemieux 2nd.....
Um if you had 5 Gretzky's and 2 played defence and 3 played forward the 5 Orr's wouldn't ever touch the puck?
Each one would have 50+ goals and 100 assists.... <still laughing> >>

Your right, I get the laughing - This is funny!

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 5:35AM

<< Gretzky was a lot tougher then people give him credit for. Just because he couldn't fight doesn't make him a puss
or protected. >>

Gretzky 5 time winner of the Lady Byng Trophy lol

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 5:37AM

<< Gretzky was was the best east west skater I ever saw and he had a pretty decent shot. He was
the greatest passer of all time. >>

Orr was the best end to end skater of all time, you can have your east to west because in hockey, that means nothing!

I will give you 1 thing.. Gretzky was the greatest passer of all time

Garabaldi · May 28, 2012 5:39AM

<< Gretzky was a lot tougher then people give him credit for. Just because he couldn't fight doesn't make him a puss
or protected. Give me a break you don't think the Islanders tried to hurt him every chance they got? Yup Potvin, Trottier,
Gillies and Nystrom definitely took it easy on him because he was the Great Gretzky. If you think so then you were not
watching in the early to mid 80's.. He was the best east west skater I ever saw and he had a pretty decent shot. He was
the greatest passer of all time. He made so many people better then they were. Bernie Nicholls? Glen Anderson?
Jari Kurri? He has more assists then anyone has points? He took a sorry Kings team to the finals with a bad back!!
Orr doesn't come close to Gretzky's accomplishments.. Oh and by the way the Hartford Whalers wanted to sign Gretzky at 17
but didn't because they were afraid it would hurt their chances on a NHL bid... Should I continue? Yup Gretzky couldn't have played
in the 50's and 60's <laughing> that's the statement of the year..... Still would take Lemieux 2nd.....
Um if you had 5 Gretzky's and 2 played defence and 3 played forward the 5 Orr's wouldn't ever touch the puck?
Each one would have 50+ goals and 100 assists.... <still laughing> >>

I am a huge fan of Gretz and it is tough to compare Gretz and Orr because of the different positions. He was tough and put up absolutely sick numbers that most likely will not be touched for quite sometime. But, you can't say that Orr does not come close. Orr was putting up numbers for a defensman that was unheard of. He was rewriting the record book and collecting Norris trophies. He also only played 8-9 good years before his knees just gave out.

chaz43 · May 28, 2012 5:47AM

<< 5 Orrs will beat 5 of anyone else. Wayne would not have lasted playing in the 50's and 60's. He would have not been protected like he was (Semenko). His career would have lasted less than Orr's. He was once cross checked by someone and that player never played a NHL game again after that. He was the most PROTECTED player from any sport. Orr fought all of his fights himself. He was tested in his rookie year and no one ever messed with him after that.
The Bruins wanted Orr to play in the NHL at 17 but had to wait a year because the rule was that you had to be at least 18. The guy changed the way the game has been played forever, no one else can lay claim to something like that. >>

Could not have said it better! chaz

chaz43 · May 28, 2012 5:48AM

<< anyone NOT "picking Gretzky, is just trying to make others think they are "bringing it from the inside"

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bossy ... and I dont even need the other 3

Orr was the biggest Hype in ALL of sports >>

You are friggen nuts. chaz

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 6:00AM

<< He also only played 8-9 good years before his knees just gave out. >>

He was actually playing on bad knees throughout those 8-9 years. He was never 100%.

Bobby Clarke said in the 1978 Canada Cup he couldn't get out of bed in the morning, played on one leg, and was
still the best player in the tournament.

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 6:08AM

<< 
Orr doesn't come close to Gretzky's accomplishments.. > >>

I think it's actuall the other way around. Gretzky doesn't come close to Orr's accomplishments.

Gretzky averaged 1.92 points per game in his NHL career.
Mario Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game in his NHL career.

For forwards, Gretzky is just a little bit ahead of Mario. Wayne didn't really seperate himself from the next best.

Bobby Orr's points per game in his NHL career is 1.39.
The next best NHL defensemen was Paul Coffey at 1.08

That is a huge difference considering that Paul Coffey got to play the power play with the greatest point producing forward
in the history of the NHL during their primes.

Bobby Orr was a much more potent offensive machine then Paul Coffey was.
Wayne Gretzky was not a much more potent offensive machine then Mario Lemieux was.

Gretzky and Coffey played with each other.
Imagine if Orr and Lemieux played together. Their numbers would be absolutely sick.

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 6:18AM

I think this thread needs some O-PEE-CHEE !

and a little more O-PEE-CHEE !!

Garabaldi · May 28, 2012 6:22AM

<< 

<< He also only played 8-9 good years before his knees just gave out. >>

He was actually playing on bad knees throughout those 8-9 years. He was never 100%.

Bobby Clarke said in the 1978 Canada Cup he couldn't get out of bed in the morning, played on one leg, and was
still the best player in the tournament. >>

That was a great interview with Clarke.

NVbaseball · May 28, 2012 6:33AM

<< 

<< 
Orr doesn't come close to Gretzky's accomplishments.. > >>

I think it's actuall the other way around. Gretzky doesn't come close to Orr's accomplishments.

Gretzky averaged 1.92 points per game in his NHL career.
Mario Lemieux averaged 1.88 points per game in his NHL career.

For forwards, Gretzky is just a little bit ahead of Mario. Wayne didn't really seperate himself from the next best.

Bobby Orr's points per game in his NHL career is 1.39.
The next best NHL defensemen was Paul Coffey at 1.08 >>

That's looking at everything outside of PRIME years. Coffey and Gretzky both played more than twice as many games as Orr and 50% more games than Lemieux. If you count only points per game during their PRIME years, the accomplishments look a lot different. During Gretzky's best nine year run (695 games, more than Orr played for his career) his average was 2.45 per game. During Coffey's best nine year run (655 games), he averaged 1.41 per game. Just because they were able to keep playing until almost 40 does not change what they were doing during their PRIMEs

If anything the stats you use show Gretzky as far superior. But it would be silly to use this one piece as the what determines who was better. The best years from Orr are very close to the best years from Gretzky. It would be reasonable to pick either one. The total accomplishments from all years, no one is anywhere near Gretzky

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 6:52AM

Here's a picture of Bobby just before his prime.

He was 20 at this time, and he visited the hospital many more times during his career.

Gretzky had no problems with his legs.

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 7:16AM

<< Here's a picture of Bobby just before his prime.

He was 20 at this time, and he visited the hospital many more times during his career.

Gretzky had no problems with his legs. >>

That is great! Great pic as well

jimrad · May 28, 2012 7:19AM

This is an unending discussion that reminds me of comparing Sandy Koufax with Cy Young.

Bobby Orr fantastic player that made an amazing impact on hockey in a limited time. Unquestionable grit and determination.

Wayne Gretzky - the greatest (career) player ever in the NHL. Amazing career stats and without a doubt made all his surrounding teammates better players.

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 7:35AM

North-South...no east west

Moldnut · May 28, 2012 8:00AM

Whithout question it would be #99 Wayne Gretzky and yes, he did what he did with bad back problems too. A very close 2nd would be Mark Messier, in fact, if I had a choice to pick one player to be on my team I would go with Mark. He has to be one of the best all around players to ever play the game.

jimrad · May 28, 2012 8:04AM

<< North-South...no east west >>

Every time I see that video it reminds me of how slow and always out of position goalies were in the Orr era.
That being said, I am at the top of the Orr fan club - not trying to take away from his talents

Mickey71 · May 28, 2012 8:17AM

Gretzky.

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 9:12AM

In 1997, The Hockey News commemorated their 50th anniversary with a list of the 50 top NHL players of all-time. The rankings, which heralded Wayne Gretzky as the best player in the history of the NHL, were determined by a panel of judges that included past and present NHL general managers, coaches, and players, as well some of the most eminent members of hockey media. The following year, THN expanded the list and published it as a book: The Top 100 NHL players of All-Time. Their list again featured Gretzky as the top player. The top ten players, in order, were: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Maurice Richard, Doug Harvey, Jean Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Terry Sawchuk and Eddie Shore.[3]

78248 · May 28, 2012 9:31AM

<< You lost me at Bossy >>

then you dont know hockey
you've just heard of a guy named orr

bossy on the oilers team ... healthy ... 1200 goals

10 year career
752 games
573 goals
553 assists
1126 points

lets not bring up the playoffs

again .... gretz, lemieux, bossy ... dream line

pmcollectour · May 28, 2012 9:38AM

Hockey News Top 100 players of all time. Former players, coaches, and GM's made up the list.

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux[1]
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk[2]
10.Eddie Shore
11.Guy Lafleur
12.Mark Messier
13.Jacques Plante
14.Ray Bourque
15.Howie Morenz
16.Glenn Hall
17.Stan Mikita[3]
18.Phil Esposito
19.Denis Potvin
20.Mike Bossy
21.Ted Lindsay
22.Patrick Roy
23.Red Kelly
24.Bobby Clarke
25.Larry Robinson
26.Ken Dryden
27.Frank Mahovlich
28.Milt Schmidt
29.Paul Coffey
30.Henri Richard
31.Bryan Trottier
32.Dickie Moore
33.Newsy Lalonde
34.Syl Apps
35.Bill Durnan
36.Charlie Conacher
37.Jaromir Jagr[4]
38.Marcel Dionne
39.Joe Malone
40.Chris Chelios[5]
41.Dit Clapper
42.Bernie Geoffrion
43.Tim Horton
44.Bill Cook
45.Johnny Bucyk
46.George Hainsworth
47.Gilbert Perreault
48.Max Bentley
49.Brad Park
50.Jari Kurri
51.Nels Stewart
52.King Clancy
53.Bill Cowley
54.Eric Lindros
55.Busher Jackson
56.Peter Stastny
57.Ted Kennedy
58.Andy Bathgate
59.Pierre Pilote
60.Turk Broda
61.Frank Boucher
62.Cy Denneny
63.Bernie Parent
64.Brett Hull
65.Aurel Joliat
66.Toe Blake
67.Frank Brimsek
68.Elmer Lach
69.Dave Keon
70.Grant Fuhr
71.Brian Leetch
72.Earl Seibert
73.Doug Bentley
74.Borje Salming
75.Georges Vezina
76.Charlie Gardiner
77.Clint Benedict
78.Steve Yzerman
79.Tony Esposito
80.Billy Smith
81.Serge Savard
82.Alex Delvecchio
83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
85.Sid Abel
86.Bob Gainey
87.Johnny Bower
88.Sprague Cleghorn
89.Mike Gartner
90.Norm Ullman
91.Sweeney Schriner
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler
94.Joe Sakic
95.Dominik Hasek
96.Babe Pratt
97.Jack Stewart
98.Yvan Cournoyer
99.Bill Gadsby
100.Frank Nighbor

78248 · May 28, 2012 9:46AM

Lists are nice for conversation, but in all honesty, they need to be by position ... even by era

I'm a Gretzky fan ... and I hate nobody ... no horse at all in the race
But Bossy at #20 is a shame

Moldnut · May 28, 2012 9:48AM

Thanks for posting the list. I would have thought Sakic and Yzerman would be a bit higher.

tsalems1 · May 28, 2012 9:53AM

<< 

<< You lost me at Bossy >>

then you dont know hockey
you've just heard of a guy named orr

bossy on the oilers team ... healthy ... 1200 goals

10 year career
752 games
573 goals
553 assists
1126 points

lets not bring up the playoffs

again .... gretz, lemieux, bossy ... dream line >>

Sorry, Bossy isnt in this discussion

78248 · May 28, 2012 9:54AM

<< I would have thought ..... Yzerman would be a bit higher. >>

no kidding
lindros at #54 ??

OT: ORR or Gretzky in his PRIME

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