#94 Joe Sakic played more games then #11 Guy Lafluer. Scored more goals, more assists, more points, and had basically the same Points Per Game. He played against better goaltending, and in a time when hooking and holding was totally permitted.
How many of the voters do you think voted for the people they liked? Gretzky-best offensive career ever. Orr-best hockey PLAYER (offense and defense) ever
So Gretzky has a +/- of 518 for a 20 year career and Orr has a +/- of 597 in half of Gretzky's career not to mention Gretzky had 7 years of minus in the +/- category. I think that just shows how dominant Orr was and how much his team scored when he was on the ice.
Every time I see that video it reminds me of how slow and always out of position goalies were in the Orr era. That being said, I am at the top of the Orr fan club - not trying to take away from his talents >>
There are at least a dozen times that I wanted to yell, "You suck" at the goalies in that video. Sort of like the Karlomov 2nd period goal in Game 1 of the Summit series against Dryden (in one of the anniversary retrospective videos, I think the 20th, they had Savard, Cournoyer, Clarke and Eagleson making commentary, after that goal, Savard says, "Ken Dryden, great goalie, but he could never play a great game against the Russians.")
BTW, the shot against Parent in that video looks like it went wide.
Compare some of those goals against the 5 in game 39 and you forget how great of a shooter Gretzky was. To answer the question, I would take Gretzky every day of the week. Orr and Lemieux ARE close, but Gretzky is really by himself.
For those that say Gretzky would not have survived in the 50's-60's, they're living in a haze. Watch any classic game and/or compare the average size/weight of players and the haze will start to lift. And the concept of Wayne being protected by the league also did not watch the team they live and die with (Flyers) lose two Stanley Cup Finals to Edmonton. Gretzky's hockey sense is what protected him, not the league.
A while back, as someone was trying to espouse the defensive strengths of Phil Housley, I took a look at +/- stats. Orr was friggin' awesome, but do read the last sentence. Thanks.
I think Howe was the best player (not the most important) the Flyers have ever had. Over at a sports collectors forum, there was a guy trying to argue the defensive strengths of Phil Housley as part of a who was not in the HHOF thread just as Howe got elected. Eventually, it lead to the part I have quoted below. It was something I had always pondered, particularly in consideration of Howe's 85-86 season. I hope it makes sense and you enjoy it. It also confirmed my own observations from watching the players.
I took a deeper look into my initial analysis of play at EVEN strength. I have a bit of data but will only summarize the methodology and the results. What I did was take the +/- data for the player and his team for that season (GF less PPGF for Net Goals For ["NGF"] and GA less PPGA for Net Goals Against ["NGA"] that provides net +/-). Consequently, you then have that data for when the player was and was not on the ice. NGF/NGA provides a scoring ratio for the team, player and team w/o the player. Winning teams will almost always have ratios over 1::1 (perhaps a team that has at least a 25+ differential in their special teams will be over .500) and losing teams below 1::1. Once I got that data, I kept both the raw spread of their on/off performance and the ratio of the on/off performance. Hopefully the examples below will present in a readable fashion. The expectation at EVEN strength is that a good player will have a higher NGF/NGA ratio than the team has when he is not on the ice. This would apply to a bad team as well. For eaxample if a team gives up one goal for every 0.90 goals it scores then a really good player on that team may have a 0.93 ratio and the rest of the team a 0.88 ratio.
Year/Team/Player Player GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- Team GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- W/O NGF/NGA NGF/NGA Ratio Team Player On/Off Spread % Spread 70-71/Bos/Orr 258/79/179 85/30/55 +124 399/80/319 207/53/154 +165 140/99 2.071/ 3.255/1.414 1.840 2.30 84-85/Edm/Gretzky 249/61/188 127/37/90 +98 401/74/327 298/76/222 +105 139/132 1.473/ 2.089/1.053 1.036 1.984
I looked at Howe from 79-80 through 87-88 (nine seasons), Langway from 82-83 through 88-89, Coffey and Gretzky while at Edmonton, Bourque's whole career and Orr from 67-68 through 74-75. Also Housley from start of career through Winnipeg.
Thus, looking at Booby Orr's line, in 1970-71 he was on the ice for 258 Boston goal, 79 were PP goals for a NGF of 179. He was on the ice for 85 goals against, 30 of them while shorthanded for a NGA of 55. His +/- was a record +124 (179-55). Boston scored a total of 399 goals, 80 of which were on the PP for a NGF of 319. The team had 207 GA, 53 of them shorthanded for a NGA of 154 and a team +/- of +165 (319-154). When Orr was not on the ice, the team had a NGF of 140 (319-179) and a NGA of 99 (154-55). At even strength, the Bruins outscored their opponents by 2.071::1 (319/154). When Orr was on the ice, they outscored their opponents 3.255::1 (179/55) and when he was not they outscored their opponents 1.414::1 (140/99). When Orr was on the ice at even strength, the Bruins were 1.84 goals better than when he was not (3.255-1.414) or 2.3x more productive (3.255/1.414).
Thoughts about even strength performance: Coffey was as I expected - very slightly above the rest of the team some years and below in others. He looks good in the other metrics in that his play was directly more than indirectly responsible for goals (goals and assists). It doesn't hide the fact that his team often did better at outscoring an opponent at even strength when he was not on the ice. Housley was similar to Coffey. In this evaluation he only had two seasons that would rank with Howe's two worst (79-80 when he was a forward and 83-84). Of course, those two worst were really good seasons, though. Bourque was amazingly consistent. Only at the end of his Boston tenure did the team perform better with him off the ice. His career spread was 0.373 goals. The nine years I looked at for Howe, his spread was 0.496. Langway was up and down. Amazingly, in his Norris trophy year, the rest of the team very slightly ouperformed him at even strength. However, the Caps were something like 87% on the PK, primarily due to Langway. Howe still should have won the Norris. Orr was simply amazing. Of the group I looked at, other than Howe, he was the only player to have a ratio 2x the rest of the team, but he did it 4 times. His spread for the years looked at was 1.031 goals. Gretzky was also amazing, although his numbers don't jump off the page like Orr's. I think this is because the stats I'm looking at favor defensemen (or at least stud defensemen) in that they typically have more Time on Ice (TOI), can influence the flow of play a bit more and +/- probably underweights ACTUAL points (although I believe to a lesser degree than GVT and PS overweight points). For example, in the 84-85 stats above, Gretzky was on the ice for 249 Edmonton goals. He had POINTS on 208 of THEM!!! (Orr 139 out of 258 for comparison)
For years I would have said Gretzky, but after reading the book "Finding Bobby Orr", I am going to say Orr.
Wayne was certainly the best passer of all time, seemed like every one of his passes was right on the other players "tape" making it easier for the other player to score or make a good play.
Orr, even with injuries had the ability to make the entire opposing team look like children. He truly had it all, when I read about him being the best player on the ice late in his career, with bad knees, against the best in the world, that did it for me.
I also remember reading about Orr's fighting ability. He was tested as a young player and destroyed the opposing player so convincingly, he was seldom challenged.
Joe
P.S. All this garbage about bad goaltending during Orr's time is just plain stupid. He made EVERYBODY look out of position, because he was that much better.
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I am a big Gretzky fan. Loved watching him, and he and Lemieux were two greats, but what the previous poster said is so true about his dominance. He could skate around the whole ice without people touching him if he wanted to. No other player in the history of the game could do that.
Question......Did Gretzky play Junior at age 14 ? Bobby was playing against 20 year olds when he was 14 years old.
You've got to watch and listen to this, especially if you think Gretzky was that much better.
I don't know how much weight this carries, but Denis Potvin said this.
In music there are the Beatles and everyone else. In hockey, there is Bobby Orr, and everyone else.
Now you may think that Potvin hates Gretzky because of the rivalry, but remember that Denis loved Wayne after Wayne sent him flowers after his dad died.
<< <i>Gretzky's single season point totals may never be reached. Has anyone been within 50 points lately? >>
More like no one's come within 100 points of his record lately.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
P.S. All this garbage about bad goaltending during Orr's time is just plain stupid. He made EVERYBODY look out of position, because he was that much better. >>
Just as an FYI, I'm 48 and have been goalie crazy since 1970.
Regarding goaltending, let's change the word "bad" to "different". Between the average size of a goaltender, the equipment and, most significantly, the technique, it is clearly "different". You watch the classic games from the 60's through today and you can see the progression of this difference. As a child, I worshipped Parent and Sawchuk. However, I have no misconception regarding them and today's goaltending. Of course, it IS all relative to the players playing in their era. In relative terms, I would have to say (granted I have Flyers' colored glasses) that for two seasons, 73-74 and 75-76, Bernie Parent was the greatest goaltender who ever lived. In absolute terms, he may have a hard time just being an NHL goaltender today, let alone a starter or a star.
I do love to watch the Sawchuk Maple Leaf/Hawks game (67 play-offs when he relieved Bower), the 72 Summit series (the full DVD set and the 20th anniversary highlight VHS) and the Flyers' 10 greatest games DVD's.
It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice. Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly. Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons. Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice.
<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice. Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly. Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons. Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice. >>
<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice. Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly. Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons. Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice. >>
Couldn't have said it better. >>
+2
Just watch some August to September games from 1972 to see how good Espo was.
When it comes to Gretzky, I've always likened him to this dialogue from Max Mercy in THE NATURAL: "Home runs, triples, singles... Anything he wants to hit, he hits. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible! Anything he wants to do, he does!"
I believe that if Gretzky had decided that he wanted to score 100 goals in a seaon, he would have. Orr or Lemieux were very close, but if you look at the NHL Gretzky Book, er... I mean NHL Record Book.....well.....
<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice. . >>
Not in my view.
In Phil's first three years in Chicago age range 22-24, he averaged 57 points a season.
From 1967-1974 when playing with Bobby Orr he averaged roughly 130 points per season.
He left playing with Orr at age 33, and averaged getting 80+ points per season with the Rangers for the next few years.
If Bobby Orr played in the 1972 Summit Series, Canada would not have lost a game. Phil Esposito admittedly was never in good shape. I don't even think you can find highlight videos of his career on youtube because there really isn't enough impressive tape.
I think some here are just looking at the lifetime stats and coming to the conclusion that Gretzky was better. This argument is about who was the better "player". Orr did EVERYTHING, Gretzky just shot and passed. When the argument is about who was the better "player", it's obvious the best player does everything. They both made their teammates better, but I just don't see the case for Gretzky being better than Orr. Orr did it all on offense and defense and won awards for both. No defensemen win scoring titles, only Orr.
"From 1967-1974 when playing with Bobby Orr he averaged roughly 130 points per season."
Not quite sure where you are going with this. Esposito showed clear progression in his first two seasons as a Bruin (67-68 74GP 35-49-84, 68-69 74GP 49-77-126) when Orr was somewhat hampered by injuries in his career progression (46GP 11-20-31 and 67GP 21-45-64. respectively). Clearly, they both benefitted from each others presence along with the continued improvement and addition of supporting players.
"If Bobby Orr played in the 1972 Summit Series, Canada would not have lost a game."
I respect you, PM, tremendously (although I do not post that often, I have seen enough posts both here and on the Net54 hockey forum to say this), however, this is a statement that is impossible to prove. Had Orr been healthy and Bobby Hull been allowed to play, would the series have been 4-3-1? Most likely, no. My gut tells me the Russians still would have won Game 1, though. Can't say for sure, though.
"I think some here are just looking at the lifetime stats and coming to the conclusion that Gretzky was better. This argument is about who was the better "player". Orr did EVERYTHING, Gretzky just shot and passed. When the argument is about who was the better "player", it's obvious the best player does everything. They both made their teammates better, but I just don't see the case for Gretzky being better than Orr. Orr did it all on offense and defense and won awards for both. No defensemen win scoring titles, only Orr."
While I understand the argument, it is a touch of apples and oranges. Gretzky would never be able to win the Norris as he was not a defenseman. The Norris is not a defensive defenseman award, otherwise Paul Coffey would not have won the award. Gretzky did kill penalties. He is, of course, the career leader in short-handed goals.
Please note that in my discussions, I never discount or diminish Orr's abilities or accomplishments. Gretzky seems to as he did not appear to have the raw abilities of Orr (or Lemieux). After watching all three play in their prime and taking into account all of their records and awards, I'd take Gretzky. That said, if I am second picking a team, the word "Orr" would be coming out of my mouth by the time the syllable "ky" was being said and, if picking third, I'd be starting the word "Lemieux" before the word "orr" was finished. They are the holy trinity of hockey.
I watched a little of Orr (as tv was limited back then).
I saw a ton of Gretzky, and saw even more of Lemieux.
I am a huge fan of Wayne Gretzky the person over Lemieux and Orr. Wayne was the best person for hockey ever. No one even comes close. What a great ambassador for the game. A true gentleman, and one heck of a hockey player.
The only thing that clouds my thinking when it comes to Gretzky was that he benefitted by playing with the 2nd best scoring defenseman of all time (Paul Coffey), who was one heck of a hockey player. He had Mark Messier who was also one of the all time greats.
I remember Gretzky hanging out at center ice waiting for breakaways because he knew Grant Fuhr, Coffey, or Siltanen would find him. I think Grant Fuhr was the first goalie who started getting a few assists. Gretzky was awesome, but he wasn't the two way juggernaut that Bobby Orr was. When Bobby was on the ice, he could shut down the other teams offense, while shredding their defense. Wayne could not do that.
Also I have to consider that Bobby did what he did on one very bad wheel. Wayne had no lower leg problems ever while playing for the Oilers (except when Billy Smith tried to hatchet him every once in a while). But seriously, he had no injuries until he had back issues with the Kings.
Comments
Scored more goals, more assists, more points, and had basically the same Points Per Game.
He played against better goaltending, and in a time when hooking and holding was totally permitted.
So yes, there are some flaws to this list.
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<< <i>
<< <i>I would have thought ..... Yzerman would be a bit higher. >>
no kidding
lindros at #54 ?? >>
I think he said that list was from 1997. It's possible that Yzerman had not been on a championship team yet.
Gretzky-best offensive career ever.
Orr-best hockey PLAYER (offense and defense) ever
So Gretzky has a +/- of 518 for a 20 year career and Orr has a +/- of 597 in half of Gretzky's career not to mention Gretzky had 7 years of minus in the +/- category. I think that just shows how dominant Orr was and how much his team scored when he was on the ice.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have thought ..... Yzerman would be a bit higher. >>
no kidding
lindros at #54 ?? >>
I think he said that list was from 1997. It's possible that Yzerman had not been on a championship team yet. >>
But what about what Eric had or had not done at that point ?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I would have thought ..... Yzerman would be a bit higher. >>
no kidding
lindros at #54 ?? >>
I think he said that list was from 1997. It's possible that Yzerman had not been on a championship team yet. >>
He had won two by then.
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He did NOT disappoint
He did everything expected and MORE
He was not a fluke, nor did he fade away after a few short years
He created superstars around him, that otherwise would have been unknowns
He was traded to a sub-par team ... and scored 54 goals, 114 points, 168 points (who were his linemates ?)
Gretzky was special ... maybe others were also ... sports sure do seem to suck nowadays
<< <i>
<< <i>North-South...no east west >>
Every time I see that video it reminds me of how slow and always out of position goalies were in the Orr era.
That being said, I am at the top of the Orr fan club - not trying to take away from his talents >>
There are at least a dozen times that I wanted to yell, "You suck" at the goalies in that video. Sort of like the Karlomov 2nd period goal in Game 1 of the Summit series against Dryden (in one of the anniversary retrospective videos, I think the 20th, they had Savard, Cournoyer, Clarke and Eagleson making commentary, after that goal, Savard says, "Ken Dryden, great goalie, but he could never play a great game against the Russians.")
BTW, the shot against Parent in that video looks like it went wide.
Compare some of those goals against the 5 in game 39 and you forget how great of a shooter Gretzky was. To answer the question, I would take Gretzky every day of the week. Orr and Lemieux ARE close, but Gretzky is really by himself.
For those that say Gretzky would not have survived in the 50's-60's, they're living in a haze. Watch any classic game and/or compare the average size/weight of players and the haze will start to lift. And the concept of Wayne being protected by the league also did not watch the team they live and die with (Flyers) lose two Stanley Cup Finals to Edmonton. Gretzky's hockey sense is what protected him, not the league.
A while back, as someone was trying to espouse the defensive strengths of Phil Housley, I took a look at +/- stats. Orr was friggin' awesome, but do read the last sentence. Thanks.
I think Howe was the best player (not the most important) the Flyers have ever had. Over at a sports collectors forum, there was a guy trying to argue the defensive strengths of Phil Housley as part of a who was not in the HHOF thread just as Howe got elected. Eventually, it lead to the part I have quoted below. It was something I had always pondered, particularly in consideration of Howe's 85-86 season. I hope it makes sense and you enjoy it. It also confirmed my own observations from watching the players.
I took a deeper look into my initial analysis of play at EVEN strength. I have a bit of data but will only summarize the methodology and the results.
What I did was take the +/- data for the player and his team for that season (GF less PPGF for Net Goals For ["NGF"] and GA less PPGA for Net Goals Against ["NGA"] that provides net +/-). Consequently, you then have that data for when the player was and was not on the ice. NGF/NGA provides a scoring ratio for the team, player and team w/o the player. Winning teams will almost always have ratios over 1::1 (perhaps a team that has at least a 25+ differential in their special teams will be over .500) and losing teams below 1::1. Once I got that data, I kept both the raw spread of their on/off performance and the ratio of the on/off performance. Hopefully the examples below will present in a readable fashion. The expectation at EVEN strength is that a good player will have a higher NGF/NGA ratio than the team has when he is not on the ice. This would apply to a bad team as well. For eaxample if a team gives up one goal for every 0.90 goals it scores then a really good player on that team may have a 0.93 ratio and the rest of the team a 0.88 ratio.
Year/Team/Player Player GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- Team GF/PPGF/NGF GA/PPGA/NGA +/- W/O NGF/NGA NGF/NGA Ratio Team Player On/Off Spread % Spread
70-71/Bos/Orr 258/79/179 85/30/55 +124 399/80/319 207/53/154 +165 140/99 2.071/ 3.255/1.414 1.840 2.30
84-85/Edm/Gretzky 249/61/188 127/37/90 +98 401/74/327 298/76/222 +105 139/132 1.473/ 2.089/1.053 1.036 1.984
I looked at Howe from 79-80 through 87-88 (nine seasons), Langway from 82-83 through 88-89, Coffey and Gretzky while at Edmonton, Bourque's whole career and Orr from 67-68 through 74-75. Also Housley from start of career through Winnipeg.
Thus, looking at Booby Orr's line, in 1970-71 he was on the ice for 258 Boston goal, 79 were PP goals for a NGF of 179. He was on the ice for 85 goals against, 30 of them while shorthanded for a NGA of 55. His +/- was a record +124 (179-55). Boston scored a total of 399 goals, 80 of which were on the PP for a NGF of 319. The team had 207 GA, 53 of them shorthanded for a NGA of 154 and a team +/- of +165 (319-154). When Orr was not on the ice, the team had a NGF of 140 (319-179) and a NGA of 99 (154-55). At even strength, the Bruins outscored their opponents by 2.071::1 (319/154). When Orr was on the ice, they outscored their opponents 3.255::1 (179/55) and when he was not they outscored their opponents 1.414::1 (140/99). When Orr was on the ice at even strength, the Bruins were 1.84 goals better than when he was not (3.255-1.414) or 2.3x more productive (3.255/1.414).
Thoughts about even strength performance:
Coffey was as I expected - very slightly above the rest of the team some years and below in others. He looks good in the other metrics in that his play was directly more than indirectly responsible for goals (goals and assists). It doesn't hide the fact that his team often did better at outscoring an opponent at even strength when he was not on the ice.
Housley was similar to Coffey. In this evaluation he only had two seasons that would rank with Howe's two worst (79-80 when he was a forward and 83-84). Of course, those two worst were really good seasons, though.
Bourque was amazingly consistent. Only at the end of his Boston tenure did the team perform better with him off the ice. His career spread was 0.373 goals. The nine years I looked at for Howe, his spread was 0.496.
Langway was up and down. Amazingly, in his Norris trophy year, the rest of the team very slightly ouperformed him at even strength. However, the Caps were something like 87% on the PK, primarily due to Langway. Howe still should have won the Norris.
Orr was simply amazing. Of the group I looked at, other than Howe, he was the only player to have a ratio 2x the rest of the team, but he did it 4 times. His spread for the years looked at was 1.031 goals.
Gretzky was also amazing, although his numbers don't jump off the page like Orr's. I think this is because the stats I'm looking at favor defensemen (or at least stud defensemen) in that they typically have more Time on Ice (TOI), can influence the flow of play a bit more and +/- probably underweights ACTUAL points (although I believe to a lesser degree than GVT and PS overweight points). For example, in the 84-85 stats above, Gretzky was on the ice for 249 Edmonton goals. He had POINTS on 208 of THEM!!! (Orr 139 out of 258 for comparison)
Wayne was certainly the best passer of all time, seemed like every one of his passes was right on the other players "tape" making it easier for the other player to score or make a good play.
Orr, even with injuries had the ability to make the entire opposing team look like children. He truly had it all, when I read about him being the best player on the ice late in his career, with bad knees, against the best in the world, that did it for me.
I also remember reading about Orr's fighting ability. He was tested as a young player and destroyed the opposing player so convincingly, he was seldom challenged.
Joe
P.S. All this garbage about bad goaltending during Orr's time is just plain stupid. He made EVERYBODY look out of position, because he was that much better.
A penalty for 2 minutes by himself.
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<< <i>
<< <i>You lost me at Bossy >>
then you dont know hockey
you've just heard of a guy named orr
bossy on the oilers team ... healthy ... 1200 goals
10 year career
752 games
573 goals
553 assists
1126 points
lets not bring up the playoffs
again .... gretz, lemieux, bossy ... dream line >>
Bossy was a great player, but not a top five player.
his dominance. He could skate around the whole ice without people touching him if he wanted to. No other player in the history of the game
could do that.
Question......Did Gretzky play Junior at age 14 ? Bobby was playing against 20 year olds when he was 14 years old.
You've got to watch and listen to this, especially if you think Gretzky was that much better.
A great piece
In music there are the Beatles and everyone else. In hockey, there is Bobby Orr, and everyone else.
Now you may think that Potvin hates Gretzky because of the rivalry, but remember that Denis loved Wayne after
Wayne sent him flowers after his dad died.
<< <i>Gretzky's single season point totals may never be reached. Has anyone been within 50 points lately? >>
More like no one's come within 100 points of his record lately.
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<< <i>
P.S. All this garbage about bad goaltending during Orr's time is just plain stupid. He made EVERYBODY look out of position, because he was that much better. >>
Just as an FYI, I'm 48 and have been goalie crazy since 1970.
Regarding goaltending, let's change the word "bad" to "different". Between the average size of a goaltender, the equipment and, most significantly, the technique, it is clearly "different". You watch the classic games from the 60's through today and you can see the progression of this difference. As a child, I worshipped Parent and Sawchuk. However, I have no misconception regarding them and today's goaltending. Of course, it IS all relative to the players playing in their era. In relative terms, I would have to say (granted I have Flyers' colored glasses) that for two seasons, 73-74 and 75-76, Bernie Parent was the greatest goaltender who ever lived. In absolute terms, he may have a hard time just being an NHL goaltender today, let alone a starter or a star.
I do love to watch the Sawchuk Maple Leaf/Hawks game (67 play-offs when he relieved Bower), the 72 Summit series (the full DVD set and the 20th anniversary highlight VHS) and the Flyers' 10 greatest games DVD's.
Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly.
Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons.
Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice.
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<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice.
Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly.
Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons.
Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice. >>
Couldn't have said it better.
drugs of choice
NHL hall of fame rookies
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<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice.
Esposito's SOG were impressive especially the 550 he put up in one season and his goals and assists helped the +/- significantly.
Esposito also won the MVP Hart trophy twice while on the same team as Orr meaning he was a more valuable player than Orr in those seasons.
Gretzky won 9 Hart MVP awards including 8 in a row(amazing and will probably never be done again) and while he made his teammates better, the Great one was always the best on the ice. >>
Couldn't have said it better. >>
+2
Just watch some August to September games from 1972 to see how good Espo was.
When it comes to Gretzky, I've always likened him to this dialogue from Max Mercy in THE NATURAL:
"Home runs, triples, singles...
Anything he wants to hit, he hits.
I've never seen anything like it.
It's incredible!
Anything he wants to do, he does!"
I believe that if Gretzky had decided that he wanted to score 100 goals in a seaon, he would have.
Orr or Lemieux were very close, but if you look at the NHL Gretzky Book, er... I mean NHL Record Book.....well.....
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<< <i>
<< <i>You lost me at Bossy >>
then you dont know hockey
you've just heard of a guy named orr
bossy on the oilers team ... healthy ... 1200 goals
10 year career
752 games
573 goals
553 assists
1126 points
lets not bring up the playoffs
again .... gretz, lemieux, bossy ... dream line >>
Bossy was a great player, but not a top five player. >>
I had to look it up, because I'm not a stat guy
just curious about who had some of the better goals per game averages
care to guess who is #1 ???
again, I'm a gretzky fan
but if bossy played another 5-7 years (or lemieux a little more) ... I dont think gretzky would be the goals leader
orr was great
lots of great players
coffey was great
orr is just one of things that I dont get
I thought the greatness to any sport was to score
not being flashy
Bossy scored the most while he was there
and he was around just as long as Orr was
if there was a draft, I'd take Bossy & you can take Orr
because right after that, I would take Coffey
Bossy and Coffey ? or Orr ?
<< <i>It's important to give some credit to Phil Esposito who put up some big numbers while Orr was on the ice.
. >>
Not in my view.
In Phil's first three years in Chicago age range 22-24, he averaged 57 points a season.
From 1967-1974 when playing with Bobby Orr he averaged roughly 130 points per season.
He left playing with Orr at age 33, and averaged getting 80+ points per season with the Rangers for the next few years.
If Bobby Orr played in the 1972 Summit Series, Canada would not have lost a game.
Phil Esposito admittedly was never in good shape. I don't even think you can find highlight videos of his career
on youtube because there really isn't enough impressive tape.
Orr did EVERYTHING, Gretzky just shot and passed. When the argument is about who was the better "player", it's obvious the best player does everything. They both made their teammates better, but I just don't see the case for Gretzky being better than Orr. Orr did it all on offense and defense and won awards for both. No defensemen win scoring titles, only Orr.
<< <i>Hockey News Top 100 players of all time. Former players, coaches, and GM's made up the list.
1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux[1]
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk[2]
10.Eddie Shore
11.Guy Lafleur
12.Mark Messier
13.Jacques Plante
14.Ray Bourque
15.Howie Morenz
16.Glenn Hall
17.Stan Mikita[3]
18.Phil Esposito
19.Denis Potvin
20.Mike Bossy
21.Ted Lindsay
22.Patrick Roy
23.Red Kelly
24.Bobby Clarke
25.Larry Robinson
26.Ken Dryden
27.Frank Mahovlich
28.Milt Schmidt
29.Paul Coffey
30.Henri Richard
31.Bryan Trottier
32.Dickie Moore
33.Newsy Lalonde
34.Syl Apps
35.Bill Durnan
36.Charlie Conacher
37.Jaromir Jagr[4]
38.Marcel Dionne
39.Joe Malone
40.Chris Chelios[5]
41.Dit Clapper
42.Bernie Geoffrion
43.Tim Horton
44.Bill Cook
45.Johnny Bucyk
46.George Hainsworth
47.Gilbert Perreault
48.Max Bentley
49.Brad Park
50.Jari Kurri
51.Nels Stewart
52.King Clancy
53.Bill Cowley
54.Eric Lindros
55.Busher Jackson
56.Peter Stastny
57.Ted Kennedy
58.Andy Bathgate
59.Pierre Pilote
60.Turk Broda
61.Frank Boucher
62.Cy Denneny
63.Bernie Parent
64.Brett Hull
65.Aurel Joliat
66.Toe Blake
67.Frank Brimsek
68.Elmer Lach
69.Dave Keon
70.Grant Fuhr
71.Brian Leetch
72.Earl Seibert
73.Doug Bentley
74.Borje Salming
75.Georges Vezina
76.Charlie Gardiner
77.Clint Benedict
78.Steve Yzerman
79.Tony Esposito
80.Billy Smith
81.Serge Savard
82.Alex Delvecchio
83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
85.Sid Abel
86.Bob Gainey
87.Johnny Bower
88.Sprague Cleghorn
89.Mike Gartner
90.Norm Ullman
91.Sweeney Schriner
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler
94.Joe Sakic
95.Dominik Hasek
96.Babe Pratt
97.Jack Stewart
98.Yvan Cournoyer
99.Bill Gadsby
100.Frank Nighbor >>
<< <i>Hockey News Top 100 players of all time. Former players, coaches, and GM's made up the list.
1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux[1]
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk[2]
10.Eddie Shore
11.Guy Lafleur
12.Mark Messier
13.Jacques Plante
14.Ray Bourque
15.Howie Morenz
16.Glenn Hall
17.Stan Mikita[3]
18.Phil Esposito
19.Denis Potvin
20.Mike Bossy
21.Ted Lindsay
22.Patrick Roy
23.Red Kelly
24.Bobby Clarke
25.Larry Robinson
26.Ken Dryden
27.Frank Mahovlich
28.Milt Schmidt
29.Paul Coffey
30.Henri Richard
31.Bryan Trottier
32.Dickie Moore
33.Newsy Lalonde
34.Syl Apps
35.Bill Durnan
36.Charlie Conacher
37.Jaromir Jagr[4]
38.Marcel Dionne
39.Joe Malone
40.Chris Chelios[5]
41.Dit Clapper
42.Bernie Geoffrion
43.Tim Horton
44.Bill Cook
45.Johnny Bucyk
46.George Hainsworth
47.Gilbert Perreault
48.Max Bentley
49.Brad Park
50.Jari Kurri
51.Nels Stewart
52.King Clancy
53.Bill Cowley
54.Eric Lindros
55.Busher Jackson
56.Peter Stastny
57.Ted Kennedy
58.Andy Bathgate
59.Pierre Pilote
60.Turk Broda
61.Frank Boucher
62.Cy Denneny
63.Bernie Parent
64.Brett Hull
65.Aurel Joliat
66.Toe Blake
67.Frank Brimsek
68.Elmer Lach
69.Dave Keon
70.Grant Fuhr
71.Brian Leetch
72.Earl Seibert
73.Doug Bentley
74.Borje Salming
75.Georges Vezina
76.Charlie Gardiner
77.Clint Benedict
78.Steve Yzerman
79.Tony Esposito
80.Billy Smith
81.Serge Savard
82.Alex Delvecchio
83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
85.Sid Abel
86.Bob Gainey
87.Johnny Bower
88.Sprague Cleghorn
89.Mike Gartner
90.Norm Ullman
91.Sweeney Schriner
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler
94.Joe Sakic
95.Dominik Hasek
96.Babe Pratt
97.Jack Stewart
98.Yvan Cournoyer
99.Bill Gadsby
100.Frank Nighbor >>
LINDROS AT #54 are you kidding me???? What a bunch of friggen idiots who made up this list......... chaz
<< <i>
<< <i>Hockey News Top 100 players of all time. Former players, coaches, and GM's made up the list.
1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux[1]
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk[2]
10.Eddie Shore
11.Guy Lafleur
12.Mark Messier
13.Jacques Plante
14.Ray Bourque
15.Howie Morenz
16.Glenn Hall
17.Stan Mikita[3]
18.Phil Esposito
19.Denis Potvin
20.Mike Bossy
21.Ted Lindsay
22.Patrick Roy
23.Red Kelly
24.Bobby Clarke
25.Larry Robinson
26.Ken Dryden
27.Frank Mahovlich
28.Milt Schmidt
29.Paul Coffey
30.Henri Richard
31.Bryan Trottier
32.Dickie Moore
33.Newsy Lalonde
34.Syl Apps
35.Bill Durnan
36.Charlie Conacher
37.Jaromir Jagr[4]
38.Marcel Dionne
39.Joe Malone
40.Chris Chelios[5]
41.Dit Clapper
42.Bernie Geoffrion
43.Tim Horton
44.Bill Cook
45.Johnny Bucyk
46.George Hainsworth
47.Gilbert Perreault
48.Max Bentley
49.Brad Park
50.Jari Kurri
51.Nels Stewart
52.King Clancy
53.Bill Cowley
54.Eric Lindros
55.Busher Jackson
56.Peter Stastny
57.Ted Kennedy
58.Andy Bathgate
59.Pierre Pilote
60.Turk Broda
61.Frank Boucher
62.Cy Denneny
63.Bernie Parent
64.Brett Hull
65.Aurel Joliat
66.Toe Blake
67.Frank Brimsek
68.Elmer Lach
69.Dave Keon
70.Grant Fuhr
71.Brian Leetch
72.Earl Seibert
73.Doug Bentley
74.Borje Salming
75.Georges Vezina
76.Charlie Gardiner
77.Clint Benedict
78.Steve Yzerman
79.Tony Esposito
80.Billy Smith
81.Serge Savard
82.Alex Delvecchio
83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
85.Sid Abel
86.Bob Gainey
87.Johnny Bower
88.Sprague Cleghorn
89.Mike Gartner
90.Norm Ullman
91.Sweeney Schriner
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler
94.Joe Sakic
95.Dominik Hasek
96.Babe Pratt
97.Jack Stewart
98.Yvan Cournoyer
99.Bill Gadsby
100.Frank Nighbor >>
LINDROS AT #54 are you kidding me???? What a bunch of friggen idiots who made up this list......... chaz >>
This list was made in 1998, so it explains why Lindros and a few others are further down the list.
Not quite sure where you are going with this. Esposito showed clear progression in his first two seasons as a Bruin (67-68 74GP 35-49-84, 68-69 74GP 49-77-126) when Orr was somewhat hampered by injuries in his career progression (46GP 11-20-31 and 67GP 21-45-64. respectively). Clearly, they both benefitted from each others presence along with the continued improvement and addition of supporting players.
"If Bobby Orr played in the 1972 Summit Series, Canada would not have lost a game."
I respect you, PM, tremendously (although I do not post that often, I have seen enough posts both here and on the Net54 hockey forum to say this), however, this is a statement that is impossible to prove. Had Orr been healthy and Bobby Hull been allowed to play, would the series have been 4-3-1? Most likely, no. My gut tells me the Russians still would have won Game 1, though. Can't say for sure, though.
"I think some here are just looking at the lifetime stats and coming to the conclusion that Gretzky was better. This argument is about who was the better "player".
Orr did EVERYTHING, Gretzky just shot and passed. When the argument is about who was the better "player", it's obvious the best player does everything. They both made their teammates better, but I just don't see the case for Gretzky being better than Orr. Orr did it all on offense and defense and won awards for both. No defensemen win scoring titles, only Orr."
While I understand the argument, it is a touch of apples and oranges. Gretzky would never be able to win the Norris as he was not a defenseman. The Norris is not a defensive defenseman award, otherwise Paul Coffey would not have won the award. Gretzky did kill penalties. He is, of course, the career leader in short-handed goals.
Please note that in my discussions, I never discount or diminish Orr's abilities or accomplishments. Gretzky seems to as he did not appear to have the raw abilities of Orr (or Lemieux). After watching all three play in their prime and taking into account all of their records and awards, I'd take Gretzky. That said, if I am second picking a team, the word "Orr" would be coming out of my mouth by the time the syllable "ky" was being said and, if picking third, I'd be starting the word "Lemieux" before the word "orr" was finished. They are the holy trinity of hockey.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hockey News Top 100 players of all time. Former players, coaches, and GM's made up the list.
This list was made in 1998, so it explains why Lindros and a few others are further down the list. >>
Yes. If you'll notice, Marty Brodeur is not even on the list, and Hasek is at 95.
Edit to add:
Last post here as this should be in Sports Talk forum. I'm just very passionate about hockey.
I saw a ton of Gretzky, and saw even more of Lemieux.
I am a huge fan of Wayne Gretzky the person over Lemieux and Orr. Wayne was the best person for hockey ever. No
one even comes close. What a great ambassador for the game. A true gentleman, and one heck of a hockey player.
The only thing that clouds my thinking when it comes to Gretzky was that he benefitted by playing with the 2nd best scoring defenseman
of all time (Paul Coffey), who was one heck of a hockey player. He had Mark Messier who was also one of the all time greats.
I remember Gretzky hanging out at center ice waiting for breakaways because he knew Grant Fuhr, Coffey, or Siltanen would find him.
I think Grant Fuhr was the first goalie who started getting a few assists. Gretzky was awesome, but he wasn't the two way juggernaut
that Bobby Orr was. When Bobby was on the ice, he could shut down the other teams offense, while shredding their defense. Wayne
could not do that.
Also I have to consider that Bobby did what he did on one very bad wheel. Wayne had no lower leg problems ever while playing
for the Oilers (except when Billy Smith tried to hatchet him every once in a while). But seriously, he had no injuries until he had back
issues with the Kings.