<< <i>I bought the coin (a website purchase or otherwise protocol might have dictated a different way of handling the return/likely mechanical error) at a very good price and it came in today. The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion. Sure I could send it off to an auction and no doubt some plastic registry set collector might even pay $7,500 or $10,000 or even more for it and I would make a very nice quick profit. But, the coin is heading to Don Willis tomorrow so he can (likely) remove it from the pop report, place the coin in the proper holder it belongs with the submitting dealer's permission so it costs PCGS nothing in the process and I can get a refund of my purchase price.
Too bad ... I would to have loved to fill the hole in my set I have been trying to fill for decades with a truly perfect coin, but not this way.
Wondercoin >>
This kind of stuff is why some people are market makers and others aren't. A stand up act by one (actually two) of the hobby's better dealers IMO.
<< <i>I bought the coin (a website purchase or otherwise protocol might have dictated a different way of handling the return) at a very good price and it came in today. The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion. Sure I could send it off to an auction and no doubt some plastic registry set collector might even pay $7,500 or $10,000 or even more for it and I would make a very nice quick profit. But, the coin is heading to Don Willis tomorrow so he can (likely) remove it from the pop report, place the coin in the proper holder it belongs with the submitting dealer's permission so it costs PCGS nothing in the process and I can get a refund of my purchase price.
Too bad ... I would to have loved to fill the hole in my set I have been trying to fill for decades with a truly perfect coin, but not this way.
Wondercoin >>
What is the proper grade on the coin? Was it blatantly overgraded, or is there something hidden that the graders missed?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore >>
Don't believe the negative propaganda you hear that MS70 is an Aristotelian metaphysical concept and could never exist. They do exist, are even common in some coins, and "perfect" is not a word found in their definition. --Jerry
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore >>
Don't believe the negative propaganda you hear that MS70 is an Aristotelian metaphysical concept and could never exist. They do exist, are even common in some coins, and "perfect" is not a word found in their definition. --Jerry >>
I am talking reality and the correlation of a term that conveys a state. When you define a state you must have a comparative context that uses defining parameters based on a known static definition contrived during the period of observation.
First off when talking about the actual upper ranges of the Sheldon scale one is talking about nuisances that are very small that when broken down not only define "as made" but the "quality of as made". Even if one was to state unequivocally that a coin was perfect it would be silly to back that up with a guarantee as "as made" will never withstand the test of time. I would bet that a cost benefit analysis has been preformed measuring the rate of submissions VS the payout when reality sets in. The whole point of having the finest known I would think would to have that one so when someone looks at it they say WOW!!! that is better than all the rest; that isn't really the case with 70s though is it. Line up 2 70s 16-69s and 2 68s and do a blind test with the top 100 graders in the world.
I am not even going to get into the idea of a perfect standard on a product that will always have little variances due to method of manufacturing which would make one think that one must use bracket parameters which then makes one think there must be variances in the grade range which could mean high end for the perfect grade and low end for the perfect grade. All of this is above the superb gem range because superb gem does sound pedestrian doesn't it.
Nice going Mitch. To preserve the intergrity of the hobby as versus a 29 year quest for the "Holy Grail" of Washington Commems. You have served the hobby well.
Ron
Collect for the love of the hobby, the beauty of the coins, and enjoy the ride.
Thanks you to everyone for the kind comments. When I bring the coin to Don tomorrow, he can decide what grade holder the coin belongs in. I suspect Don will likely conclude the coin left the building as a mechanical error.
It was disappointing to be sure to have thought there was a chance to complete the modern Half Dollar Commem series in perfect 70 by adding a 1982 GW half in MS70 to the collection (which 29 years of personal searching told me was near impossible to locate in even near perfect condition). I started the PCGS mint state half dollar and dollar modern commem sets with my young son Justin as a project to build the sets from "homemade" cherry-picks of perfect raw modern commem coins. Nearly all the coins in these sets was a handpicked jewel we found searching through hundreds and hundreds of raw modern commems or, in a few cases, from already graded MS70 coins that we found to be neat prooflikes or very special coins in another way.
Anyway, I was in NYC last week and took my wife to the Museum of Modern Art for the day (check it out next time you are in the city as Van Gogh's "Starry Night" is there as well as Dali's "Persistence of Memory" to name just a few great paintings). I got a call about this coin and I told my wife I would be right back as I needed to do some very quick business (a huge mistake!) Suffice it to say, it took over an hour to wrap up the business (including a follow up thank you call to the collector who tipped me off about the coin) and when I returned to the very room of paintings I left her in more than an hour earlier (which of course she did not leave to rub it in even more), I was clearly in the dog house. The last place you ever want to be is a crowded museum with a ticked off wife ... trust me! The "29 year search" story got me absolutely nowhere with her! Luckily, about -2- hours later, I crawled out of the dog house when I agreed to walk around the museum's gardens with her for another hour (acting like I was very impressed with the flowers while, all the while, thinking about this coin).
Anyway, while Justin might not have this coin to finish his half dollar commem set with me, he did just find out that UCLA accepted him for their Chemistry program this fall. Even better.
And, this is my 30th year with the same lady, so I can think of that whenever I think of not having this coin.
I also think it is probably about time to throw in the towel on trying to find this coin in truly perfect PCGS 70 grade. I can tell you this ... I did have the very same excitement in that museum last week as I did 29 years ago when I opened my first (100) fresh pieces of this commem in the hunt for a perfect example. But, the museum experience was probably the perfect ending to the search for this one. It is probably about time to retire the set and move on!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
But i do have a question on the reason you bought this coin since you did not believe it to be a "70" and most likely paid more than "69" money for it. You either saved pcgs money or cost them more. How do they handle a coin like this?
You mentioned in a earlier post that you could have flipped it for more, at what point does pcgs say enough is enough? Or are pcgs dealers suppose to keep this type of thing from happening?
My question is more about a different coin and a different seller cause we all know wondercoin is a 1st rate dealer and person, but some others may be more inclined to make the quick buck and pass the problem to the next collector.
Thanks.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Mark: The coin was purchased with a credit card off a website without me even seeing a scan of the coin with a full return policy. Of course, I hoped the coin would have been a perfect 70, although my personal experience suggests such a coin may not exist at this point.
Where the submitter is an authorized dealer (as was the case here), PCGS can clean up a problem like this nearly all the time without incurring one cent of liability as no innocent consumer ends up with the coin prior to PCGS pulling it off the market when it is an obvious problem. That is for Don to confirm tomorrow when he sees it (as I am fairly sure he will).
A coin like this can easily find its way into the marketplace where someone buys it for big $$$ "for the plastic" to control first place in a registry series that no one can ever (likely) duplicate (not to mention PCGS could be on the hook for the coin in perpetuity whenever they decide to seek a refund under the PCGS guarantee... perhaps after it resells for more and more money with each subsequent sale). In fact, even after I posted what I did tonight, I received a PM essentially asking if I would sell the coin to a board member as opposed to turning it over to PCGS!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Mark: The coin was purchased with a credit card off a website without me even seeing a scan of the coin with a full return policy. Of course, I hoped the coin would have been a perfect 70, although my personal experience suggests such a coin may not exist at this point.
Where the submitter is an authorized dealer (as was the case here), PCGS can clean up a problem like this nearly all the time without incurring one cent of liability as no innocent consumer ends up with the coin prior to PCGS pulling it off the market when it is an obvious problem. That is for Don to confirm tomorrow when he sees it (as I am fairly sure he will).
A coin like this can easily find its way into the marketplace where someone buys it for big $$$ "for the plastic" to control first place in a registry series that no one can ever (likely) duplicate (not to mention PCGS could be on the hook for the coin in perpetuity whenever they decide to seek a refund under the PCGS guarantee... perhaps after it resells for more and more money with each subsequent sale). In fact, even after I posted what I did tonight, I received a PM essentially asking if I would sell the coin to a board member as opposed to turning it over to PCGS!
Wondercoin >>
Thanks Mitch!! My only real complaint is you told the world to soon it was most likely not a 70. You could have let us drool for a little while longer. Congrats on Justin. I would think that would be a great field to get into now and the future.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
I looked at the photos of this coin at the seller's website. The photos were about actual size and the coin did not look bad in the photos. The finished looked smooth and uniform with no obvious marks. I would have paid my money and taken my chances.
I genuinely and highly respect you, Wondercoin, for turning this coin in for proper grading. Thanks for doing that. You could have kept up the deception and profited by it. The hobby owes you.
<< <i>I genuinely and highly respect you, Wondercoin, for turning this coin in for proper grading. Thanks for doing that. You could have kept up the deception and profited by it. The hobby owes you. >>
That MS68 Washington Commem is a beautiful coin. But even in that grade there are a hundred or hundreds of the most minute distractions. How many of those would be allowed on a "true" MS70 example? If the answer it really 0, then no such coin could possibly exist unless it was hand removed after a strong striking, the planchet was near perfect to begin with and in the intervening 20 yrs the coin developed no spots, stains, fingerprints or other imperfections from mishandling.
I met with Don Willis and David Hall today who examined the "MS70" coin. I believe Don figured the coin around MS67 overall, but he did grade the reverse close to MS70 (so you can get an idea of what he thought of the obverse). I had personally figured the coin to be around MS68 quality in my book especially with the MS69+ nice reverse. Despite what you may have heard elsewhere, I believe it is very "doable" to properly grade these moderns at the MS68/MS69/MS70 grade levels. In fact, as I have said before, I hope PCGS might extend + grading out to the MS69 grade one day in the future (but that is another story).
I believe both Don and David were both very appreciative to have this coin removed from the market and especially with very limited (or no) expense to PCGS.
I agree with EagleEye and I might even go one step further. I believe PCGS has graded close to 24 million coins and this universe of coins essentially makes up the "brand" name. Every time a coin is graded, it impacts the ENTIRE universe of PCGS coins as well as the brand name as a whole. PCGS should do everything in its power to ensure the brand stays strong (including taking off the market clear grading mistakes as they discover them). Dealers (and collectors) alike should also be vigilant in protecting their favorite series and making sure problem coins are dealt with swiftly and appropriately.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
if PCGS were to come to the conclusion that the coin left their building as a "mechanical error" and especially if the submitter was an authorized dealer who signed the Licensing Agreement, I believe PCGS could simply ask that dealer to accept the corrected grade and refund my credit card payment and cancel the sale.
Hypothetically, if the submitter was a huge customer of PCGS' (or for whatever other reason PCGS deemed proper), PCGS could simply "eat" the payment I made, which I believe was a tiny fraction of what the coin's true value in MS70 was, and send me a check to close out the deal (and yes, subtract a tiny amount for the value of the MS68 if that was the case). Purely their business decision I suspect.
In a collectors' hands who bought the coin in good faith ... perhaps even a different result might be possible if the coin was sent in for re-evaluation... PCGS might pay the fmv of the coin especially if it was deemed to not be a mechanical error. This is where coins like this become the most expense and difficult for PCGS to deal with ... when additional third parties get involved.
Just my 2 cents here, but I hope this helps.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
just an awesome story all the way around....kudos to your better half for staying in the same room at the MOMA for an hour...wow....she deserves as much credit for this one as you...you'll never find a coin that can match the quality of her!!!!!
No matter what the outcome would have been I think this is a very enjoyable thread. Even though there are always naysayers like Dimeman the truth is that there are so many modern issues that are so difficult to find in high grades. If you were to ask me these are certainly worthy of having threads dedicated to them as there is a lot to learn about them. If you have never tried to find a 1982 Washington Half in MS-69 or even 70, or have been trying to find six full steps Jefferson Nickels from the 1980s you might not have a clue how tough these are, simply because quality control at the Mint was not as strict as one might think and many of these issues are true grade rarities.
<< <i>BIG MISTAKE from PCGS. We blew it on this coin and it should never have gotten out the doors as it did.
This coin has been removed from the market and will be disposed by PCGS. The pop will go back to 0.
Thanks to WONDERCOIN for alerting PCGS to the situation. WONDERCOIN stepped up, bought it, and gave it to us to handle.
We will of course reimburse WONDERCOIN and we thank him for his efforts and dedication to keeping the market honest. >>
Congrats to PCGS for this response, it's refreshing. In these modern times most people and companies rarely admit to mistakes and instead try to cover things up. I hated the fact that Bill Clinton didn't do the same thing, his investigation cost about 40 million and the Pete Rose lie about killed my Dad when after over 10 years the guy finally came clean and admitted to betting on Baseball.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
This thread should be required reading prior to anyone joining these boards. It's got a little bit of everything. Proud of all involved. They should all sleep well at night. -Mark
P.S. I've always liked this coin, especially the textured hill on the reverse. I didn't realize how hard it is to find them in upper grades. I double checked the few I have last night and yes, most are pretty beat up. One nice one really stood out and I'd guess it to be a 66 or so.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
<< <i>This thread should be required reading prior to anyone joining these boards. It's got a little bit of everything. Proud of all involved. They should all sleep well at night. -Mark
P.S. I've always liked this coin, especially the textured hill on the reverse. I didn't realize how hard it is to find them in upper grades. I double checked the few I have last night and yes, most are pretty beat up. One nice one really stood out and I'd guess it to be a 66 or so. >>
I did the same thing. Got mine out and looked it over. The reverse is quite beautiful. And, yes, pretty beat up too. Probably a 65 or 66.
Comments
<< <i>I bought the coin (a website purchase or otherwise protocol might have dictated a different way of handling the return/likely mechanical error) at a very good price and it came in today. The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion. Sure I could send it off to an auction and no doubt some plastic registry set collector might even pay $7,500 or $10,000 or even more for it and I would make a very nice quick profit. But, the coin is heading to Don Willis tomorrow so he can (likely) remove it from the pop report, place the coin in the proper holder it belongs with the submitting dealer's permission so it costs PCGS nothing in the process and I can get a refund of my purchase price.
Too bad ... I would to have loved to fill the hole in my set I have been trying to fill for decades with a truly perfect coin, but not this way.
Wondercoin >>
This kind of stuff is why some people are market makers and others aren't. A stand up act by one (actually two) of the hobby's better dealers IMO.
Tough coin in MS69,,,,, Really tough in PCGS MS70
GrandAm
Edited due to my typing Washington Quarter when I meant Commemorative Half Dollar
<< <i> A stand up act by one of the hobby's better dealers IMO. >>
Too bad about the grade, but being a market leader, you're amazingly honest about the coin. I mean, WOW. I bow my head to you, sir!
Still, it would look good in a registry set, being Pop 1!
<< <i>I bought the coin (a website purchase or otherwise protocol might have dictated a different way of handling the return) at a very good price and it came in today. The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion. Sure I could send it off to an auction and no doubt some plastic registry set collector might even pay $7,500 or $10,000 or even more for it and I would make a very nice quick profit. But, the coin is heading to Don Willis tomorrow so he can (likely) remove it from the pop report, place the coin in the proper holder it belongs with the submitting dealer's permission so it costs PCGS nothing in the process and I can get a refund of my purchase price.
Too bad ... I would to have loved to fill the hole in my set I have been trying to fill for decades with a truly perfect coin, but not this way.
Wondercoin >>
What is the proper grade on the coin? Was it blatantly overgraded, or is there something hidden that the graders missed?
For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.
The Reeded Edge
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore
<< <i>
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore
Don't believe the negative propaganda you hear that MS70 is an Aristotelian metaphysical concept and could never exist. They do exist, are even common in some coins, and "perfect" is not a word found in their definition. --Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> The coin is not even close to being an MS70 in my opinion.
Wondercoin >>
No coin truly is, it was always meant to be a hypothetical grade but what do I know. I would say I agree with dimeman but he believes in fairy tail over-dates so I just don't know what to believe in anymore
Don't believe the negative propaganda you hear that MS70 is an Aristotelian metaphysical concept and could never exist. They do exist, are even common in some coins, and "perfect" is not a word found in their definition. --Jerry >>
I am talking reality and the correlation of a term that conveys a state. When you define a state you must have a comparative context that uses defining parameters based on a known static definition contrived during the period of observation.
First off when talking about the actual upper ranges of the Sheldon scale one is talking about nuisances that are very small that when broken down not only define "as made" but the "quality of as made". Even if one was to state unequivocally that a coin was perfect it would be silly to back that up with a guarantee as "as made" will never withstand the test of time. I would bet that a cost benefit analysis has been preformed measuring the rate of submissions VS the payout when reality sets in. The whole point of having the finest known I would think would to have that one so when someone looks at it they say WOW!!! that is better than all the rest; that isn't really the case with 70s though is it. Line up 2 70s 16-69s and 2 68s and do a blind test with the top 100 graders in the world.
I am not even going to get into the idea of a perfect standard on a product that will always have little variances due to method of manufacturing which would make one think that one must use bracket parameters which then makes one think there must be variances in the grade range which could mean high end for the perfect grade and low end for the perfect grade. All of this is above the superb gem range because superb gem does sound pedestrian doesn't it.
It is late and I am rambling
You have served the hobby well.
Ron
It was disappointing to be sure to have thought there was a chance to complete the modern Half Dollar Commem series in perfect 70 by adding a 1982 GW half in MS70 to the collection (which 29 years of personal searching told me was near impossible to locate in even near perfect condition). I started the PCGS mint state half dollar and dollar modern commem sets with my young son Justin as a project to build the sets from "homemade" cherry-picks of perfect raw modern commem coins. Nearly all the coins in these sets was a handpicked jewel we found searching through hundreds and hundreds of raw modern commems or, in a few cases, from already graded MS70 coins that we found to be neat prooflikes or very special coins in another way.
Anyway, I was in NYC last week and took my wife to the Museum of Modern Art for the day (check it out next time you are in the city as Van Gogh's "Starry Night" is there as well as Dali's "Persistence of Memory" to name just a few great paintings). I got a call about this coin and I told my wife I would be right back as I needed to do some very quick business (a huge mistake!) Suffice it to say, it took over an hour to wrap up the business (including a follow up thank you call to the collector who tipped me off about the coin) and when I returned to the very room of paintings I left her in more than an hour earlier (which of course she did not leave to rub it in even more), I was clearly in the dog house. The last place you ever want to be is a crowded museum with a ticked off wife ... trust me! The "29 year search" story got me absolutely nowhere with her! Luckily, about -2- hours later, I crawled out of the dog house when I agreed to walk around the museum's gardens with her for another hour (acting like I was very impressed with the flowers while, all the while, thinking about this coin).
Anyway, while Justin might not have this coin to finish his half dollar commem set with me, he did just find out that UCLA accepted him for their Chemistry program this fall. Even better.
And, this is my 30th year with the same lady, so I can think of that whenever I think of not having this coin.
I also think it is probably about time to throw in the towel on trying to find this coin in truly perfect PCGS 70 grade. I can tell you this ... I did have the very same excitement in that museum last week as I did 29 years ago when I opened my first (100) fresh pieces of this commem in the hunt for a perfect example. But, the museum experience was probably the perfect ending to the search for this one. It is probably about time to retire the set and move on!
Wondercoin
But i do have a question on the reason you bought this coin since you did not believe it to be a "70" and most likely paid more than "69" money for it. You either saved pcgs money or cost them more. How do they handle a coin like this?
You mentioned in a earlier post that you could have flipped it for more, at what point does pcgs say enough is enough? Or are pcgs dealers suppose to keep this type of thing from happening?
My question is more about a different coin and a different seller cause we all know wondercoin is a 1st rate dealer and person, but some others may be more inclined to make the quick buck and pass the problem to the next collector.
Thanks.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Where the submitter is an authorized dealer (as was the case here), PCGS can clean up a problem like this nearly all the time without incurring one cent of liability as no innocent consumer ends up with the coin prior to PCGS pulling it off the market when it is an obvious problem. That is for Don to confirm tomorrow when he sees it (as I am fairly sure he will).
A coin like this can easily find its way into the marketplace where someone buys it for big $$$ "for the plastic" to control first place in a registry series that no one can ever (likely) duplicate (not to mention PCGS could be on the hook for the coin in perpetuity whenever they decide to seek a refund under the PCGS guarantee... perhaps after it resells for more and more money with each subsequent sale). In fact, even after I posted what I did tonight, I received a PM essentially asking if I would sell the coin to a board member as opposed to turning it over to PCGS!
Wondercoin
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>And, this is my 30th year with the same lady, so I can think of that whenever I think of not having this coin.
Wondercoin >>
Well done on 30 years, that is no easy task and I hope you make 50.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Mark: The coin was purchased with a credit card off a website without me even seeing a scan of the coin with a full return policy. Of course, I hoped the coin would have been a perfect 70, although my personal experience suggests such a coin may not exist at this point.
Where the submitter is an authorized dealer (as was the case here), PCGS can clean up a problem like this nearly all the time without incurring one cent of liability as no innocent consumer ends up with the coin prior to PCGS pulling it off the market when it is an obvious problem. That is for Don to confirm tomorrow when he sees it (as I am fairly sure he will).
A coin like this can easily find its way into the marketplace where someone buys it for big $$$ "for the plastic" to control first place in a registry series that no one can ever (likely) duplicate (not to mention PCGS could be on the hook for the coin in perpetuity whenever they decide to seek a refund under the PCGS guarantee... perhaps after it resells for more and more money with each subsequent sale). In fact, even after I posted what I did tonight, I received a PM essentially asking if I would sell the coin to a board member as opposed to turning it over to PCGS!
Wondercoin >>
Thanks Mitch!! My only real complaint is you told the world to soon it was most likely not a 70. You could have let us drool for a little while longer.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Here's the Coinfacts image of a MS68.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>I genuinely and highly respect you, Wondercoin, for turning this coin in for proper grading. Thanks for doing that. You could have kept up the deception and profited by it. The hobby owes you. >>
I will second that.
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
on a "true" MS70 example? If the answer it really 0, then no such coin could possibly exist unless it was hand removed after a strong striking, the planchet was near perfect to begin with and in the intervening 20 yrs the coin developed no spots, stains, fingerprints or other imperfections from mishandling.
I met with Don Willis and David Hall today who examined the "MS70" coin. I believe Don figured the coin around MS67 overall, but he did grade the reverse close to MS70 (so you can get an idea of what he thought of the obverse). I had personally figured the coin to be around MS68 quality in my book especially with the MS69+ nice reverse. Despite what you may have heard elsewhere, I believe it is very "doable" to properly grade these moderns at the MS68/MS69/MS70 grade levels. In fact, as I have said before, I hope PCGS might extend + grading out to the MS69 grade one day in the future (but that is another story).
I believe both Don and David were both very appreciative to have this coin removed from the market and especially with very limited (or no) expense to PCGS.
I agree with EagleEye and I might even go one step further. I believe PCGS has graded close to 24 million coins and this universe of coins essentially makes up the "brand" name. Every time a coin is graded, it impacts the ENTIRE universe of PCGS coins as well as the brand name as a whole. PCGS should do everything in its power to ensure the brand stays strong (including taking off the market clear grading mistakes as they discover them). Dealers (and collectors) alike should also be vigilant in protecting their favorite series and making sure problem coins are dealt with swiftly and appropriately.
Wondercoin
"Order #20604002 / Submission #4606023
Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 24290098 9600 1982-D 50C Washington USA MS68"
Wondercoin
Being newer, I still do not understand the end, will PCGS will refund you the difference paid to the dealer and the $ true grade, or ?
if PCGS were to come to the conclusion that the coin left their building as a "mechanical error" and especially if the submitter was an authorized dealer who signed the Licensing Agreement, I believe PCGS could simply ask that dealer to accept the corrected grade and refund my credit card payment and cancel the sale.
Hypothetically, if the submitter was a huge customer of PCGS' (or for whatever other reason PCGS deemed proper), PCGS could simply "eat" the payment I made, which I believe was a tiny fraction of what the coin's true value in MS70 was, and send me a check to close out the deal (and yes, subtract a tiny amount for the value of the MS68 if that was the case). Purely their business decision I suspect.
In a collectors' hands who bought the coin in good faith ... perhaps even a different result might be possible if the coin was sent in for re-evaluation... PCGS might pay the fmv of the coin especially if it was deemed to not be a mechanical error. This is where coins like this become the most expense and difficult for PCGS to deal with ... when additional third parties get involved.
Just my 2 cents here, but I hope this helps.
Wondercoin
But then Daddy always said the only person that never makes a mistake doesn't do anything.
This coin has been removed from the market and will be disposed by PCGS. The pop will go back to 0.
Thanks to WONDERCOIN for alerting PCGS to the situation. WONDERCOIN stepped up, bought it, and gave it to us to handle.
We will of course reimburse WONDERCOIN and we thank him for his efforts and dedication to keeping the market honest.
just an awesome story all the way around....kudos to your better half for staying in the same room at the MOMA for an hour...wow....she deserves as much credit for this one as you...you'll never find a coin that can match the quality of her!!!!!
gyros
And thank you Don.
Wondercoin
i have a suggestion for a new title for this thread i bet has never been used before
"A MS70 1982 Washington half was finally UNgraded!
.
Dennis
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<< <i>BIG MISTAKE from PCGS. We blew it on this coin and it should never have gotten out the doors as it did.
This coin has been removed from the market and will be disposed by PCGS. The pop will go back to 0.
Thanks to WONDERCOIN for alerting PCGS to the situation. WONDERCOIN stepped up, bought it, and gave it to us to handle.
We will of course reimburse WONDERCOIN and we thank him for his efforts and dedication to keeping the market honest. >>
Congrats to PCGS for this response, it's refreshing. In these modern times most people and companies rarely admit to mistakes and instead try to cover things up. I hated the fact that Bill Clinton didn't do the same thing, his investigation cost about 40 million and the Pete Rose lie about killed my Dad when after over 10 years the guy finally came clean and admitted to betting on Baseball.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
It's got a little bit of everything.
Proud of all involved. They should all sleep well at night.
-Mark
P.S.
I've always liked this coin, especially the textured hill on the reverse.
I didn't realize how hard it is to find them in upper grades.
I double checked the few I have last night and yes, most are pretty beat up.
One nice one really stood out and I'd guess it to be a 66 or so.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
<< <i>This thread should be required reading prior to anyone joining these boards.
It's got a little bit of everything.
Proud of all involved. They should all sleep well at night.
-Mark
P.S.
I've always liked this coin, especially the textured hill on the reverse.
I didn't realize how hard it is to find them in upper grades.
I double checked the few I have last night and yes, most are pretty beat up.
One nice one really stood out and I'd guess it to be a 66 or so. >>
I did the same thing. Got mine out and looked it over. The reverse is quite beautiful. And, yes, pretty beat up too. Probably a 65 or 66.
Box of 20