UPDATE BY OP ON PG 5: Wow, eBay's Coin Community Watch Group TRUMPS PCGS Grading!!!
uofa1285
Posts: 2,252 ✭✭
Anyone else run into this? If so, any recourse to relist without stating PCGS is wrong? 
See the letter from eBay I cut and pasted below...I am shocked!....
"You recently listed the following Fixed Price listing:
200702051651 - 1992 PCGS PR67RB South Africa 1C RAINBOW Neon Tone - Amazing Colors!
200709124731 - 1992 South Africa PCGS PR65RB Gem Wild Colorful Toned 5 Cents!
200714677554 - South Africa 2C - 1992 PCGS PR64RB RAINBOW Neon Tone - Wow!
Unfortunately, we had to remove your listing because of the following:
eBay may end any coin or currency-related listing if we believe that the sale of the item might create liability for the buyer, the seller, or pose a risk to the Community. Sometimes problematic auctions are identified by a group of members that comprise a Community Watch Group for currency listings.
As far as the exact problem with the item(s), the following was received from the Coin Community Watch group:
"These coins have been artificially toned the listing failed to disclose this."
With regard to the assessment of the listing, as eBay employs no experts in the field of currency we are unable to arbitrate disputes. You will need to disclose that the coins have been artificially toned, and state what process was used in order to relist the coins."
(Edited nly for my grammar mistakes and to add an emoticon).
See the letter from eBay I cut and pasted below...I am shocked!....
"You recently listed the following Fixed Price listing:
200702051651 - 1992 PCGS PR67RB South Africa 1C RAINBOW Neon Tone - Amazing Colors!
200709124731 - 1992 South Africa PCGS PR65RB Gem Wild Colorful Toned 5 Cents!
200714677554 - South Africa 2C - 1992 PCGS PR64RB RAINBOW Neon Tone - Wow!
Unfortunately, we had to remove your listing because of the following:
eBay may end any coin or currency-related listing if we believe that the sale of the item might create liability for the buyer, the seller, or pose a risk to the Community. Sometimes problematic auctions are identified by a group of members that comprise a Community Watch Group for currency listings.
As far as the exact problem with the item(s), the following was received from the Coin Community Watch group:
"These coins have been artificially toned the listing failed to disclose this."
With regard to the assessment of the listing, as eBay employs no experts in the field of currency we are unable to arbitrate disputes. You will need to disclose that the coins have been artificially toned, and state what process was used in order to relist the coins."
(Edited nly for my grammar mistakes and to add an emoticon).
Visit my eBay Store to see my (mostly) overpriced Rainbow Toned PCGS/NGC coins! IshopCoinShows4You
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Comments
to not confuse ebay or the buyer.
bob
They capped off their obvious blatant ignorance with "we employ no currency experts".
I'm shocked.
be sure to list on bst too... no fees or b.s.
you putting up any more lincolns by chance???
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
There have been screams for eBay to do something about- well, Stuff That Some People Don't Like for a long time. It appears that they are.
if you post images of the items in question, it may assist others
.
Capital investment depends on confidence. - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>When you sell pipes don't be surprised when you are surrounded by smokers. When you deal with and promote the most controversial part of the hobby don't cry at the first hint of controversity >>
After the effort eBay has been making to get rid of grading services other than PCGS and NGC to protect the community, I think there's a justified complaint in doing everything right and still getting in trouble.
Of course, if this watchdog group plans to go shut down the hundreds of raw, blatantly AT'd pieces of crap currently listed, then I can see this going somewhere if the kinks get straightened out. Of course, I also want to know who's on the group.
<< <i>Just a matter of time before their watch group begins disagreeing with grades. >>
Probably not what you meant exactly, but... They pulled one of my coins listed as "PCGS Genuine - Uncirculated Details" with just an hour to go in the listing. It was only around $100 shy of why I considered fair value of the coin at the time.
Now, off the cuff, one could argue that an XF or even AU coin listed as Uncirculated Details *should* be pulled. However this coin was simply the victim of an overzealous dipping and because someone in the eBay "blackbox' decided that no Code 92 (Cleaned) could have Uncirculated details, the coin was pulled. This being in the pre-PCGS-Details-grading era, I argued that NGC regularly certified coins as having Uncirculated Details but ungradable due to being cleaned. They said they'd pull the listing even if a slab stated "Uncirculated Details".
I subsequently listed the coin as having AU Details in the title and told the "eBay grading story" in the body and it ended up selling for a couple hundred over what I expected.
I was livid at the time it happened because I was effectively being called a liar and being punished by a black-box-process that I couldn't confront.
Clearly its still happening.
<< <i>After the effort eBay has been making to get rid of grading services other than PCGS and NGC to protect the community, I think there's a justified complaint in doing everything right and still getting in trouble. >>
Sometimes, people post here that they think PCGS/NGC screwed up by slabbing a particular coin pictured in a thread. That this sort of thing (critiquing TPG opinions) is happening on eBay is hardly a surprise.
Otherwise, this means that the 1st and 2nd Laws of Grading Standards are in conflict! Help, Will Smith!
<< <i>
<< <i>When you sell pipes don't be surprised when you are surrounded by smokers. When you deal with and promote the most controversial part of the hobby don't cry at the first hint of controversity >>
After the effort eBay has been making to get rid of grading services other than PCGS and NGC to protect the community, I think there's a justified complaint in doing everything right and still getting in trouble.
Of course, if this watchdog group plans to go shut down the hundreds of raw, blatantly AT'd pieces of crap currently listed, then I can see this going somewhere if the kinks get straightened out. Of course, I also want to know who's on the group. >>
Agreed
Capital investment depends on confidence. - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>eBay did something silly? Here's my shocked face-
There have been screams for eBay to do something about- well, Stuff That Some People Don't Like for a long time. It appears that they are. >>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
And non AT coins end up incorrectly bagged. At some point the second guessing has to land squarely on the shoulders of the buyer.
Lance.
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
I just relisted them now...let's see if it was just "mechanical error" on eBay's part to end them without looking.
Doug
oh, p.s., don't buy any if you go to look at them....this is not an advertisement to sell the coins...besides, they are dark siders anyway. ;p
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
I agree, lets see what they saw, then light the flame throwers if need be.
what if the claim is they were AT'ed in the holder?
<< <i>
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
I just relisted them now...let's see if it was just "mechanical error" on eBay's part to end them without looking.
Doug
oh, p.s., don't buy any if you go to look at them....this is not an advertisement to sell the coins...besides, they are dark siders anyway. ;p >>
Can you please post links for information purposes (this would preclude it from being considered spam)? I am very much interested in seeing the coins. Again, I trust PCGS, but there could have been a mistake, or as one posted alluded to, it is possible that the coins were artificially toned in the slab. This does happen.
The Community Watch Group member needs his hand slapped.
Lance.
<< <i>I hope these watch group people are not paid by ebay. I would hate to see what I pay to operate there funding that kinda thing, especially them going after PCGS coins. Unbelievable. >>
Again, after seeing the coins, I agree that whoever pulled the listing and/or made the report was wrong. With this said, I find nothing incredible or unbelievable, nor would I have been as quick to jump to conclusion as many were.
If you blindly buy plastic, even PCGS plastic, you will end up getting burned. This is true for all TPGs. In addition to possible errors, as was alluded to, it is possible to gas slabs after the fact.
<< <i>I hope these watch group people are not paid by ebay. I would hate to see what I pay to operate there funding that kinda thing, especially them going after PCGS coins. Unbelievable. >>
Easy now. Mistakes can happen. And no, members are not paid anything.
Lance.
I said, "You guys are the ones telling me the rules and changing them and you're the ones telling me I did not upload tracking information on 13 out of 155 transactions, but all my customers got their stuff in time and ... and... ".
Then he says : "We don't know which items". So I asked : "Well if you can't identify my shortcomings, how can they exist ? "
Their hired phone helpers are designed to apologize profusely without taking corrective action or giving me an avenue to the proper authorities in order to rectify what areas my flaws apparently exist in. I think it's rubbish.
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. >>
Of course they're not. I don't think anyone claims otherwise.
<< <i>AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
And people who are making the determination that a PCGS/NGC graded coin is actaully AT or not from an internet image as opposed to the TPG graders, who actually saw the coin in person, are the ones to decide whether the coin is eBay acceptable? O-kay.
<< <i>I believe that the violation is that the listing must include obverse and reverse slab images to be valid. EBay has become very strict on this matter. In fact, the reverse slab must clearly show the hologram. Clearly this is a reaction to counterfeit slab concerns, etc. I agree it does seem very strange that cancelled a PCGS-graded coin listing as AT. But with these images they can't confirm it's been slabbed. >>
Hi Mr. Feigenbaum,
You are correct, that one of the auctions does not have the reverse of the entire slab. My error. (But the other two do have photos of the entire fronts and backs).
Thanks to all Members for your input thus far,
Doug
<< <i>I am surprised that everyone is able to comment at how "idiotic" or "stupid" eBay is on this transaction without asking to see the coins first. There is no question in my mind that PCGS is an excellent service, but it isn't perfect. AT coins do end up in TPG holders (even of the legitimate services). >>
Without having looked at the coins, here are the possibilities I thought of before replying, and my reactions:
1- The coins are blatantly AT. That may be, but PCGS still graded them. The coin is being sold as a PCGS coin, which is acceptable by eBay, so no problem. If the coin really has a problem, you could argue the seller has an obligation to disclose it, but I don't see how eBay could possibly make that judgment.
2- The images are wildly enhanced and make the coin look AT. That doesn't make the coin AT, so at most the infraction cited would be with the images (if they even care), and that's not the problem here.
3- The coins are fine, and this shouldn't have happened.
No matter what, eBay didn't go about this the right way.
"Coins minted before 1980 must show the full front and back of the holder. Coins minted in 1980 or after must show the full front of the holder."
Capital investment depends on confidence. - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Per ebay coin and currency policy:
"Coins minted before 1980 must show the full front and back of the holder. Coins minted in 1980 or after must show the full front of the holder." >>
That's good info, thanks.
Doug
After viewing the coins in questions I do not see how PCGS graded
them with color like that. MOO code 91 questionable color
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
There are certainly known top TPG slabbed AT coins that have been disavowed, e.g. blue Indians and Jeffersons.
<< <i>"You recently listed the following Fixed Price listing:
200702051651 - 1992 PCGS PR67RB South Africa 1C RAINBOW Neon Tone - Amazing Colors! (PCGS 18337063)
200709124731 - 1992 South Africa PCGS PR65RB Gem Wild Colorful Toned 5 Cents! (PCGS 18324264)
200714677554 - South Africa 2C - 1992 PCGS PR64RB RAINBOW Neon Tone - Wow! (PCGS 18337069) >>
Has anybody asked the seller whether he was the one who sent the coins for grading?
If you search eBay, you will find one seller with nearly three hundred rainbow toned coins for sale, is there something toxic in the air in his area?
The fact is that only US collectors place any value on the ridiculous colors on these coins - try looking on the UK site - and some coin docs have admitted that they have treated their coins to create these colors.
If cleaning a coin damages it and merits reporting by the grading companies, surely artificially toning merits the same treatment?
At some time in the past an unscrupulous coin dealer discovered that he could create artificially toned coins, buyers jumped on them and that is why we are where we are today.
As far as I am concerned, a coin that has been artificially toned is just a tampered coin and the South African coins which are the subject of this thread are $1.50 coins that have been tampered with to grossly inflate their selling price.
Scrupulous collectors and dealers should try to stop this nonsense and if NGC or PCGS grade these coins, then frankly they are complicit and they too should clean up their act.
Albert Einstein himself stated "I'm not an atheist, and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist ... I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings".
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
The MAJOR issue I see here stated in the title of the thread. If E-Bay endorses PCGS and NGC as the top tier grading companies (and they clearly have said this), then they have to accept the professional graders opinions. No second guessing. The difficulty lies in fake slabs with fake coins. Some are hard to tell with the crappy pics sellers put up.
In any case, I think it's completely wrong for E-Bay to have taken down these listings. Let the buyer be the final decision maker.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>. . . . . . . .The MAJOR issue I see here stated in the title of the thread. If E-Bay endorses PCGS and NGC as the top tier grading companies (and they clearly have said this), then they have to accept the professional graders opinions. No second guessing. The difficulty lies in fake slabs with fake coins. Some are hard to tell with the crappy pics sellers put up.
In any case, I think it's completely wrong for E-Bay to have taken down these listings. Let the buyer be the final decision maker. >>
It's kind of like hiring Michaelangelo to paint your ceiling, then having art students paint the second coat.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<<Has anybody asked the seller whether he was the one who sent the coins for grading?>>
Can't speak for anyone else, but I've attended major shows where practically a dealer's entire table consists of highly toned and extremely colorful slabs...so it's not impossible to have lots of toned inventory...especially if that's "your thing."
But I do find it alarming that eBay is now questioning the integrity of top tier TPG slabs..for whatever reason. Unless there are obvious signs of tampering/counterfeiting...on what grounds are they now claiming to stand?
Once again...I'll give it 5 years (at most) before eBay bans coin sales entirely.
Can't believe the number of good dealers that have bailed on ebay. And still ebay does coins.
Find other sites, mostly owned by the dealer themselves, and deal with someone that cares, and will take care of you.
Lots of Better dealers, have opened their own sites, because of fees and rules, and general nonsense.
Ebay is becoming the monster that will be it's own ruin.
JMHO
http://www.coinshop.com