Bronco , can i ask you , is your avatar a 3rd baseman named Ken Mullen from the late 70's era ? >>
I have no idea who it is I picked it at random . I have tried to upload a pic of my Ford bronco but shrinking it down enough pixelates it into a blue blob
Since I joined I seem to miss upload day every time. >>
Hahaha , cool , i thought my ship had come in , a few years ago i won an autographed topps card from Topps , it's this guy in your avatar , KenMullen ,at least it sure looks like him and the ballcap is correct for the 77 season as on the card.Thanks
I have not posted in this section in about a year,,,my opinions seem to irritate people who in turn irritate me to the point that I don't feel like investing any more time here. (sorry for not linkifying the links...I have a bunch of ebay stuff I need to get to the post office)
I have been accused of supplying some quotes from a private ebay group to the OP of this thread. I did not. Apparently it is beyond the comprehension of the group leaders that the list of the 10 most recent visitors to the group does not account for the unknown number of some 3000 members who get email daily summaries or followups to topics they have participated in. (I did forward to PCGS and a couple of dealers an anonymous email I received purporting to be a list of the "Coin Community Watch" but actually taken from the ebay group. Seems like a lot of people got that email. I also sent some private emails to a couple of dealers in toned coins, referring to the information mentioned earlier in this thread)
First, some background. There is the Coin Community Watch group of experts, and then there is an ebay private group and a Yahoo public group both called "Coin Forgery Ebay."
When much of your content is mirrored to a Yahoo group, and when members use the same names on yahoo and eBay, and when members of the private group cut and paste long message strings into the public ebay coin discussion forum -- members should not be surprised when their names and discussion topics are not as "private" as they think.
"Coin Forgery eBay" is is heavily weighted by buyers and sellers of non-certified inexpensive coins, Here is what the LEADER of the group "Too_toot" (which is what we used to call male genitalia in kindergarten) is dealing in. Not much to make him an expert on whether toning in PCGS slabs is AT or NT based on a photo...
The group is also heavily weighted by early copper people, ancient collectors, and European collectors (who grade much more strictly than American numismatists) None of these are fans of American grading services, and many think "big grading companies" and "big powerful corrupt dealers" are all in cahoots to cheat coin buyers.
Often they seem to delve into paranoia. A quote on Yahoo from the group leader:
It may be observed carefully and followed as a bellwether to see how effective or not eBay is in going after advocate groups like the CFe. (We seem to attract many viewers and few posters to discuss or reply to threads so I'm sure there are a lot of folks looking to see what we're focusing our current efforts upon). Sort of like, to see how much pressure eBay exerts upon the CFe when privileged users are fingered as being corrupted or running scams that are intentionally placed in numismatic categories where CFers habitually check listings - US Trade Dollars, Spanish Colonial stuff, Riksdalers, key date US coins, etc. The degree with which the community buckles under shows the extent of which those who desire transparency can muscled or be gagged indicates how well the dysfunction intent of their influence has taken hold. Sort of like testing us the way sophisticated white collar criminal networks dangle irresistible balloons in front of federal agencies like the Justice Dept. or the FBI to see which will come down harder or to see who's got the jurisdiction so they know which politico group they need to massage and how zealous they are in their pursuit of criminal behavior.
Right after this Lapidary2 fellow's name came up in this thread, a couple of PCGS forum members who seldom post suddenly had a lot more interest in this thread..and a little too much knowlege, but always veiled as FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND.... Hint: The guy who uses British spellings is Lapidary2.
Then on the ebay group, our expert coin posse member Lapidary2 pointed out a supposed fake Capped Bust half dollar that I was selling...It was an early die state, but Lapidary2 pointed out all the diagnostics that the stars are supposed to be drawn out to the rims, there should not be such a bold obverse rim...that is, pointing out all the things that differ a genuine early die state coin from a genuine late die state coin.
My coin had already been paid for and was in the mail when eBay ended the auction based on a report that my coin was a counterfeit,,,and automatically issued a refund to the buyer from my Paypal account. Of course, Lapidary2 didn't have anything to do with THAT either. Must have been someone in the PCGS forum, even though my name had never come up here.
Once again and for the record, Judith received a report about your coin and I mentioned it here. The listing was not removed as a result of my actions but as the result of someone in CU who either took the view that the coin was a counterfeit or that there had been insufficient disclosure about the coin. Go ahead Frank, make yourself look foolish and add to your reputation. Feel free to call me a liar too, I suspect that the majority of CFe members and certainly all of the active ones here see you for what you are, as does someone in the CU forums.
That should speak for itself what kind of people have been behind all this effort to get auctions of toned PCGS coins ended.
By the way, the buyer of my Capped Bust half dollar was no novice (knew the Overton variety and was quite pleased with it) and sent me a check for the full price of the coin. But had he buyer not been honest, eBay would have let the buyer keep my coin and the money based on the reports of this Lapidary2 character (oops...I mean someone in the CU forum)
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
The lesson that should be learned from this is summarized in those eBay removal notices... EBAY EMPLOYS NO EXPERTS, WE RELY ON COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO MONITOR AND REPORT...blah blah blah.
If eBay was still what they claim to be -- JUST A VENUE -- where the actual transaction is between the buyer and seller and eBay used to warn at the bottom of every page "Caveat emptor - Buyer Beware," this might have been an acceptable way of monitoring their marketplace. But today, with eBay's very high seller fees, strict rules on what you can sell, how you can describe it, what forms of payment you can accept, what your return period must be, specifications on photos, how fast you need to ship it, maximum charges on shipping, no direct communication with buyers, no mention of your own website or email address -- sellers are in effect working to eBay's specifications as eBay's order fulfillment staff...but instead of being paid for our work, we pay THEM.
And likely coming soon -- already being rolled out on eBay Germany -- Amazon-style payments. The buyer will pay eBay directly and the funds will be released to you only after Ebay confirms delivery and a satisfied buyer.
And for some years, eBay's Coins category has racked up several billion dollars a year in sales volume, dwarfing the coin volume of such companies as Heritage and Stack's-Bowers. So relying on volunteers who work free (and you DO get what you pay for) is really unacceptable. Ebay needs to step up and hire a few full time numismatists who can review auction listings objectively -- rather than people who work free and anonymously with questionable credentials and questionable motives ("VAM 40 on this here 1921 Morgan dollar is a numerical grade and should not be allowed because the coin is raw" -- actually caused a removal and policy violation on the record of this writer) Or people who dislike all TPG services as a matter of principal, or believe all toning is either fake or the same thing as rust on iron, or use their position to kill the business and reputation of competitors, or people they simply don't like.
Imagine the change for the better with eBay if they employed a dozen full time coin/collectible/antique experts -- and plenty of qualified people would work 40 hours a week from home for $25K a year. And the cost would be about 1% of eBay CEO John Donahoe's compensation!
Ebay is the big dog in Internet coin auctions, and should have their own staff monitor their site, instead of relying on the free work from ANA staff, dealers, Coin Community Watch, concerned collectors, and the rare but destructive self appointed coin cops who relish the job to create chaos for their targets.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
1971-73 Canadian Silver Dollars are widely known to have toned in vivid colors such as the subject coins from long term storage in the velvet presentation boxes they were issued in. typically they are heavily toned on one side which faced up and either untoned or toned to a much lesser degree on the side facing down. the colors i see and own aren't much different than the colors on the OP's listed coins.
judging stuff such as this isn't as simple as having a basic understanding of toning or a policy of encapsulation which has changed. while PCGS does indeed make mistakes. as a whole they understand things to a much higher degree than most of us or the distinguished committee at eBay. i would trust their judgement in this case.
Comments
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Bronco , can i ask you , is your avatar a 3rd baseman named Ken Mullen from the late 70's era ? >>
I have no idea who it is I picked it at random . I have tried to upload a pic of my Ford bronco but shrinking it down enough pixelates it into a blue blob
Since I joined I seem to miss upload day every time. >>
Hahaha , cool , i thought my ship had come in , a few years ago i won an autographed topps card from Topps , it's this guy in your avatar , KenMullen ,at least it sure looks like him and the ballcap is correct for the 77 season as on the card.Thanks
to the point that I don't feel like investing any more time here. (sorry for not linkifying the links...I have a bunch of ebay stuff I need to get to the post office)
I have been accused of supplying some quotes from a private ebay group to the OP of this thread. I did not.
Apparently it is beyond the comprehension of the group leaders that the list of the 10 most recent visitors to the group does not account for the unknown number of some 3000 members who get email daily summaries or followups to topics they have participated in. (I did forward to PCGS and a couple of dealers an anonymous email
I received purporting to be a list of the "Coin Community Watch" but actually taken from the
ebay group. Seems like a lot of people got that email. I also sent some private emails to a couple of dealers in toned coins, referring to the information mentioned earlier in this thread)
First, some background. There is the Coin Community Watch group of experts, and then there is an
ebay private group and a Yahoo public group both called "Coin Forgery Ebay."
When much of your content is mirrored to a Yahoo group, and when members use the same names on yahoo and eBay, and when members of the private group cut and paste long message strings into the public ebay coin discussion forum -- members should not be surprised when their names and discussion topics are not as "private" as they think.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coinforgeryebay/messages/791?viscount=-30&l=1
"Coin Forgery eBay" is is heavily weighted by buyers and sellers of non-certified inexpensive coins, Here is what the LEADER of the group "Too_toot" (which is what we used to call male genitalia in kindergarten) is dealing in. Not much to make him an expert on whether toning in PCGS slabs is AT or NT based on a photo...
http://www.ebay.com/sch/too_toot/m.html
The group is also heavily weighted by early copper people, ancient collectors, and European collectors (who grade much more strictly than American numismatists) None of these are fans of American grading services, and many think "big grading companies" and "big powerful corrupt dealers" are all in cahoots to cheat coin buyers.
Often they seem to delve into paranoia. A quote on Yahoo from the group leader:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coinforgeryebay/message/768
It may be observed carefully
and followed as a bellwether to see how effective or not eBay is in
going after advocate groups like the CFe. (We seem to attract many
viewers and few posters to discuss or reply to threads so I'm sure
there are a lot of folks looking to see what we're focusing our
current efforts upon). Sort of like, to see how much pressure eBay
exerts upon the CFe when privileged users are fingered as being
corrupted or running scams that are intentionally placed in
numismatic categories where CFers habitually check listings - US
Trade Dollars, Spanish Colonial stuff, Riksdalers, key date US coins,
etc. The degree with which the community buckles under shows the
extent of which those who desire transparency can muscled or be
gagged indicates how well the dysfunction intent of their influence
has taken hold. Sort of like testing us the way sophisticated white
collar criminal networks dangle irresistible balloons in front of
federal agencies like the Justice Dept. or the FBI to see which will
come down harder or to see who's got the jurisdiction so they know
which politico group they need to massage and how zealous they are in
their pursuit of criminal behavior.
Right after this Lapidary2 fellow's name came up in this thread, a couple of
PCGS forum members who seldom post suddenly had a lot more interest
in this thread..and a little too much knowlege, but always veiled as FROM WHAT
I UNDERSTAND.... Hint: The guy who uses British spellings is Lapidary2.
Then on the ebay group, our expert coin posse member Lapidary2 pointed out
a supposed fake Capped Bust half dollar that I was selling...It was an early die
state, but Lapidary2 pointed out all the diagnostics that the stars are supposed
to be drawn out to the rims, there should not be such a bold obverse rim...that
is, pointing out all the things that differ a genuine early die state coin from a genuine
late die state coin.
My coin had already been paid for and was in the mail when eBay ended the auction
based on a report that my coin was a counterfeit,,,and automatically issued a refund
to the buyer from my Paypal account. Of course, Lapidary2 didn't have anything to do
with THAT either. Must have been someone in the PCGS forum, even though my name
had never come up here.
Once again and for the record, Judith received a report about your coin and I mentioned it here. The listing was not removed as a result of my actions but as the result of someone in CU who either took the view that the coin was a counterfeit or that there had been insufficient disclosure about the coin. Go ahead Frank, make yourself look foolish and add to your reputation. Feel free to call me a liar too, I suspect that the majority of CFe members and certainly all of the active ones here see you for what you are, as does someone in the CU forums.
That should speak for itself what kind of people have been behind all this effort to get auctions of toned PCGS coins
ended.
By the way, the buyer of my Capped Bust half dollar was no novice (knew the Overton variety and was quite pleased with it) and sent me a check for the full price of the coin. But had he buyer not been honest, eBay would have let the buyer keep my coin and the money based on the reports of this Lapidary2 character (oops...I mean someone in the CU forum)
EBAY EMPLOYS NO EXPERTS, WE RELY ON COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO MONITOR AND REPORT...blah blah blah.
If eBay was still what they claim to be -- JUST A VENUE -- where the actual transaction is between the buyer and seller and eBay used to warn at the bottom of every page "Caveat emptor - Buyer Beware," this might have been an acceptable way of monitoring their marketplace. But today, with eBay's very high seller fees, strict rules on what you can sell, how you can describe it, what forms of payment you can accept, what your return period must be, specifications on photos, how fast you need to ship it, maximum charges on shipping, no direct communication with buyers, no mention of your own website or email address -- sellers are in effect working to eBay's specifications as eBay's order fulfillment staff...but instead of being paid for our work, we pay THEM.
And likely coming soon -- already being rolled out on eBay Germany -- Amazon-style payments. The buyer will pay eBay directly and the funds will be released to you only after Ebay confirms delivery and a satisfied buyer.
And for some years, eBay's Coins category has racked up several billion dollars a year in sales volume, dwarfing the coin volume of such companies as Heritage and Stack's-Bowers. So relying on volunteers who work free (and you DO get what you pay for) is really unacceptable. Ebay needs to step up and hire a few full time numismatists who can review auction listings objectively -- rather than people who work free and anonymously with questionable credentials and questionable motives ("VAM 40 on this here 1921 Morgan dollar is a numerical grade and should not be allowed because the coin is raw" -- actually caused a removal and policy violation on the record of this writer) Or people who dislike all TPG services as a matter of principal, or believe all toning is either fake or the same thing as rust on iron, or use their position to kill the business and reputation of competitors, or people they simply don't like.
Imagine the change for the better with eBay if they employed a dozen full time coin/collectible/antique experts -- and plenty of qualified people would work 40 hours a week from home for $25K a year. And the cost would be about 1% of eBay CEO John Donahoe's compensation!
Ebay is the big dog in Internet coin auctions, and should have their own staff monitor their site, instead of relying on the free work from ANA staff, dealers, Coin Community Watch, concerned collectors, and the rare but destructive self appointed coin cops who relish the job to create chaos for their targets.
judging stuff such as this isn't as simple as having a basic understanding of toning or a policy of encapsulation which has changed. while PCGS does indeed make mistakes. as a whole they understand things to a much higher degree than most of us or the distinguished committee at eBay. i would trust their judgement in this case.