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Another thread has got me thinking
COINS MAKE CENTS
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How long is to long.
If you buy coins raw from a dealer and later find out they have issues how long is to long to say something to the dealer? I mean if you buy 5 raw coins from a dealer and get them graded 5 years later and they all have issues is there still grounds to ask for a refund? I'm not saying dealers should try to sell this stuff without saying what's wrong with it but just curious how long is to long to say something and expect the dealer to do anything about it.
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It depends on the specifics of that dealer's return policy and any guarantee they may have.
I know many dealers that will guarantee there stuff is genuine for as long as you own the coin but I'm saying do dealers really have a return policy that says if you find this coin has issues in 5 years sure return it to us.
HAPPY COLLECTING
I believe it would depend on the circumstances of the deal and each deal would have to be looked at on a case by case basis. As an example; if the dealer in their sales pitch to you guaranteed it would grade then, they should stand by it for at least 1 year. Now, if your buying a raw coin and your getting a good deal and no one really mentions grading, then there should be some sort of time limit (maybe 90 days) on how long you can return a coin.
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I agree with @divecchia and if I may add.....try not to wait too long to submit them on your part; more deals done in a timely manner would only benefit you
Define "issues"? If you buy a coin raw from a dealer and it is counterfeit, there is virtually not statute of limitations. If you buy a coin raw from a dealer [sight seen] and find out it was cleaned or artificially toned, then it better be a dealer you are very close to...Caveat emptor. There is no implied guarantee with a coin unless there is a stated guarantee.
I always assume raw coins are like used cars. Not too many dealers take those back if (when) there are issues. Buyer beware. Authenticity should be explicitly guaranteed though.
absolutely not. If it has been 5 years good luck. How can someone know its same coin, not been messed with, dropped, stored improper, handled improper.
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Sure. Buy a brilliant uncirculated coin, store it improperly for 5 yrs, then return it because of the spots and tarnish.
I generally agree with the others.
Especially if it is a substantial coin (somewhat unique or at least identifiable) then a virtual lifetime guarantee of authenticity should be expected, but the reality is that trying to enforce that too far in the future would be tough for most coins. As for grading or originality disputes, I would think you have days or maybe weeks to figure out if it was not what was represented - the time it would take to try to have it slabbed, for example, might be the limit.
Oh yes I agree it should always be guaranteed authentic, I was more saying like if you buy a coin thats toned and a year later someone gets it graded and it comes back AT, or buy a coin that comes back cleaned or smoothed. Stuff like that. How long Is to long to ask for a refund? I'm not dealing with this issue or anything I just didnt know if people thought after a year or 2 years or 5 years or what was to long to ask for anything back
HAPPY COLLECTING
I have had 2 instances in my career That come to mind where I sold a coin and they came back to return a year or so later. The 1st was a common Bust dime that was a nice original VF. The buyer dipped the sh*t out of it and couldn't sell it. I chalked that up to reputation tax and bought it back.
The second was much worse. A 1796 Bust Quarter that had nice smooth,deep original toning,VG10 Details..but an old bend that was straightened at some time in it's life and continued to circulate. The buyer came up to me a year later at a show and asked me if I wanted to buy it back. Well..it was all but a total trade deal and I still had around 1/2 the coins I took in trade. At the time I was inventory rich and cash poor and I told him so and we might be able to work something out.
He brought it in the next day and all I could do was say OMG! He had soaked the coin in dip until it was blast white and porous. I said why did you clean it? He told me had not done anything to the coin. He then hands me a notice from PCI that they could not determine if it was genuine. I told him I would stand behind the coin if it was indeed not genuine but wanted to send it to a different grading service. He started becoming belligerent with his new gold digger girl both lashing out at me. I gave him the coins I still had of his in good faith while I was going to have the coin authenticated. That wasn't enough and they escalated their belligerence.
Lucky for me several dealers and the bourse chairman had been watching the whole thing unfold. The Bourse Chairman told them to leave. At that point I told him that was all I was going to give him at this point until I find out if the coin was indeed not genuine. I told him I was an ANA member and was willing to let them mediate our problem. He finally left with security escorting him out of the show.
Early the next week I began receiving threating emails from him! Lucky for me I had consigned the coin previously to a friend trying to sell it online and I was able to get the pictures. He actually admitted it was the same coin...not blast white but original...was no denying he had not done what he did to the coin!
After a month I finally got the coin back certified....yeah many will argue by Larry Briggs...SEGS. He had to do a specific Gravity test as well as other things and said it was without a doubt genuine.
I emailed the guy and gave him 2 choices...he could send me back the coins I gave him back(around 1/2 what he paid) after spending something over $100 to have it authenticated and I would send him the coin back or I was done and wasn't coughing up another dime! He actually agreed to just keep what he had....I never heard another word out of him and that was over 10 years ago.
Well...I didn't want anything to do with the coin at that point. Moved it on to a friend who later consigned it to Heritage. It hammered about 6 months after the deal was undone for more than 50% over what the guy paid...even after what he had done to it! It was the better variety of the 2 1796's!
Five years, wow, that's asking a lot, unless of course the coins have now gone up in value then I'd suspect the dealer would be happy to refund your original purchase price.
In my opinion in your example if you got the coins graded walk through the next day and they came back AT or cleaned you still shouldn't ask to return them. Unless. that is, the dealer specifically states "I guarantee this will straight grade or bring it back" and if he does that he should also state the time frame for the guarantee as well as any other details.
If he simply has a raw coin in inventory and you purchase it and it comes back details that's completely on you and no one else and you should deal with the consequences of it. If you don't want to deal with the consequences then just buy already slabbed coins IMO
Once a raw coin leaves your possession you have no control over what could happen to it or if it’s the same coin even.
I can see a line between genuine and gradeable. If a coin turns out fake vs not getting a desired grading outcome. If a grading co says not genuine, then by all means take it back. Just hope you can find your seller when you get around to that. We know raw coins sell at different prices than graded examples. One may get a bargain or really get burnt when you see what the pro grader say. That risk is larger with raw coins. One should really, really know your series before wading in the raw end of the pool, but if someone cannonball jumps in there and it doesn’t work out, then who’s supposed to supply the shoulder to cry on?
I don’t like seeing noobs hot interest being a problem coin dumping station, but said noob has a responsibility to learn and protect himself too. I’m mean yeah, I’d love to have my 10K in tuition back too and invest it into my core collection today, but I’d like to think the knowledge I gained from that I use today and helps me enjoy the hobby more than ever. I’ve made some mistakes, I’m sure nobody gets it right all the time, even the carrier guys, but there is value in exercising personal responsibility and taking your licks like a grown up.
Not a dealer but here is my opinion. When you buy a raw coin, a dealer should stand behind it being genuine. Even if you don't learn it's fake for 5 years, if you learn it's fake and still own it and the dealer you bought it from is still in business/alive, he or she should stand behind the product. Maybe the dealer wants to personally send it off to pcgs or ngc first to confirm, but once confirmed, the dealer should stand behind it.
Now as for the thread you are referring to, it is my opinion that if you buy a raw coin and send it off to get it graded and it comes back details but still genuine, that the seller owes you nothing. You took a risk, presumably getting a decent deal on a raw coin that if graded would be worth more than you paid. And if the favorable outcome happened, would you as the buyer offer the dealer back half the profit or the dealer the chance to buy the coin back at the same price? No one would... If I was a certain coin seller responding to the OP of a certain other thread, I would have told him that I don't accept returns from people that buy raw coins and don't get the grades they were hoping for. You can't return a raw coin 6 months or a year later because you don't like that it came back with a details grade. Even if we don't like the seller, that's just as messed up.
Of course, if the seller guaranteed the coin would straight grade, then the seller should stand behind it. But in the case of the thread you are referring to, that is not the case.
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Yes, I agree with all those that say you have no control over what happens to a raw coin when it leaves your possession. I used to like PVC flips. They were clear, pliable and the edges didn't cut your fingers because they were sharp (like the non PVC"s at the time, the ones that cracked into pieces).....
I always explained that the 'holder' would not be suitable for long-term storage. I'm sure most collectors understood me, but I have no doubt that some have probably left coins in those flips. When I told you to re-holder the coin, does that make me historically responsible ?
5 years just does not pass the straight face test... At some point, perhaps after a few months, let's just say 6 months it keep it simple....that a collector should have looked at the coin, determined the grade and whether it was worthy of their collection. I would be far more concerned about my own reputation. The only trump card is whether the coin is fake...
No pun intended... Even though...well... I think I have written enough
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How is a dealer going to remember all the raw coins they sold? If you buy it raw, consider it sold. If the dealer is nice enough to return it, consider yourself lucky. I am amazed the guy in the other thread got them to return the coins. As others have said, after it is sold, who knows what happened to it.
Unless there was an agreement between the two parties that the coin or coins would grade out at a minimum specified grade, my view is that a raw coin sold is sold ( at a show or person to person sale.)
Period.
An online or mail purchase should not require more than 14 days, a month maximum, to determine if the deal works or not.
Obviously I am presuming the coins are authentic.
I stick with a few key rules with raw coin collecting/purchasing and I've picked these up since I've been a member here.
1) Never buy a raw key date coin such as a 1916-D Merc, 1909-S VDB, etc...
2) Never buy raw coins unless your buying them in person.
3) Submit raw coin ASAP and keep all original 2x2's and or flips.
4) Never spend more than $300 on a raw coin if you can help it.
5) If buying modern, try and buy raw while it's still in the original packaging.
6) Deal with collectors who have a decent return policy. If they like what they sell, they should back it.
Hope these help.
Later, Paul.
1 day less than I need. That is all.
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No I think 5 years is to long a lot can happen in one years time. Some just don't know how to take care of coins. But if it's in a holder PCGS or NGC you may have a foot to stand on.
Hoard the keys.
I would say, and it is my opinion, that five years is way beyond any reasonable expectation of return service. Raw coins are always 'caveat emptor'. At five years - or even 2, 3, or 4 - it is not a return, the possessor then becomes a seller. Sure, there are always considerations, and in some cases, it may be a good business decision. But basically, coins are really no different than cars or other appliances. Do your due diligence prior to committing. Cheers, RickO
Good thread.
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I think 5 years is too long to expect a refund on a raw coin that couldn't grade...but approaching the dealer is worth a try.
I would simply ask the dealer buy them back rather than (or before) commenting on the grading results or asking for a refund.
You will learn a lot by their reaction.
I was just curious based on another thread where someone bought raw coins and none of them straight graded. Theres some very interesting answers here. So it's good to know theres so many different view points on this matter
HAPPY COLLECTING
While I agree with the majority of opinions stated in this thread, especially about authenticity, and whether a coin can “straight grade” or not (which should be part of the evaluation the buyer should be able to determine in my opinion) has never been the responsibility of the seller in my experience, unless it is intentionally hidden.
A notable exception in my mind though is if the coin had been repaired. Some repairs are “expertly” done, but can be discerned with adequate comparison images and magnification and in all cases I am aware of once identified have reduced the value of the coin below what it was worth unmolested. I feel a Dealer is responsible to disclose that up front if he knows, and should stand behind it after it is determined the same as if it were found to be counterfeit.