Yount greater than Jeter?
craig44
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Check out the stats. almost exactly the same amount of ABs and Yount has more doubles and triples and has only 6 less home runs than Jeter. a better power hitter with better ISO in an more difficult era to hit for power. Jeter hit into 70 more double plays. Yount created more WAR for his career and had possibly the greatest season by a modern shortstop in 1982. both played important defensive positions, with Yount making the mid career change from shortstop to center field because of a shoulder injury. While I am very skeptical of current fielding stats, for what it is worth, Jeter was a historically bad shortstop while Yount was above average. Yount was an average to below average center fielder due mostly to the shoulder injury depleting his throwing arm. his range factors are average to slightly above average. Jeter won ROY while Yount won two MVP awards. Both excelled in the playoffs with Jeter having a bigger sample size.
If both players were to switch cities, with Jeter in Mil and Yount in NY, would Yount be viewed as Jeter is today? I think that when looking at the stats, Yount was the better player but was "lost" in Millwaukee.
what do you think?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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Sounds like another Jeter basher to me.
Sounds like another post that will involve a lot of baseball stats and hairsplitting of the aforementioned stats
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Robin Yount enshrined in Cooperstown? Easy to get lost driving there but his plaque has a permanent address.
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Sounds like a good argument.
Coming from a Jeter fan.
Since I am not a stat guy, I won't do that. What I will say is Robin Yount, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter - these are all HOF talents who played the position differently but each at a high level.
I have also also ALWAYS said - going back to the days of the Arod/Tejada/Nomar/Jeter debate - that much of Jeters greatness is not necessarily statistical. Sure, he has stats that say he's great as well but with Derek Jeter it was more about larger than life moments, smart plays and as good a grip on the game between the ears as you are likely to see. And I have heard many a Jeter detractor say that if Jeter wasn't a Yankee, he's probably not a Hall of Famer. Maybe that's right. But he was. And he is.
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Yount was great. Jeter was great.
m
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Both great Yount a bit better.
playing in the bigger media center(s) always helps.
Until Dallas chimes in we won’t have a correct analysis of the answer
Since my name was invoked I am required to opine. And my opinion is that they are very, very close to equals in just about everything. But, of hitting, fielding and base running I think Jeter was a little bit bitter at all three and therefore better overall. What Yount has on Jeter is a much better peak as a hitter. Since they ended their careers in a virtual tie, that also means that Yount has more bad seasons than Jeter, but if you are inclined to give extra credit for peak performance then Yount makes up ground there; enough ground to pass Jeter if you weight peak performance high enough.
Sounds like it is close...but Jeter gets the nod.
Young = great player, but teams he was with were not great.
Jeter = great player, teams he was with were great
Mark this thread official since Dallas gracefully gave us his input, I now only hope that my good friend Skin shows up and the thread turns into an epic back and forth between the two!
Jeter was a historically bad shortstop?
While I watched most of his games and would vehemently disagree, there are fielding metrics that posited that Derek Jeter was a below average defensive shortstop. Some, later in his career, specifically called him the worst. EVERY player slips defensively as their career goes on, though. He played to a more advanced age than most shortstops so it stands to reason his latest seasons would not rate stellar.
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Those last couple of years were pretty painful to watch.
Jeter was like garden gnome at short the last couple of seasons. Doesn't taint the rest of his body of work IMO
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Jeter was a pretty good shortstop when he was young, and got pretty bad by the end of his career, which describes a whole lot of shortstops. But whatever you think of his defensive value, there's really no question that it was higher than Yount's. Yount, too, was a pretty good shortstop when he was young, but instead of becoming a bad shortstop he became a bad center fielder. Why that happened is irrelevant, so please no whining about injuries or anything else. Add it all up, and Jeter made greater defensive contributions over the course of his career than Yount did; ditto for hitting, ditto for running the bases. People got so caught up in whether or not Jeter was "overrated" that I think a lot of them didn't notice they were watching one of the 5 greatest shortstops of all time.
Brewers fan here. Thankfully I didn't get to witness this as I was only 3-4 years old, but I was shocked to learn that Rockin' Robin made 44 errors at SS in 1975, his 2nd year.
To be fair, that looks to be his worst fielding year. Just looking at fielding % he was about the league average for most of his career. Fielding stats are pretty useless.
He was no Luis Aparicio in the field, but was one of the better hitting SS if not the best of his era. Over 300TB 4 times and 290 two times (289&291 to be exact).
These guys look pretty even to me.
After the Yankees acquired AROID, Jeter selfishly and to the detriment of his team, wouldn't relinquish SS to a better defender. As he aged, he also wouldn't change position even though he was very very bad at the end. I always saw these two instances as real black eyes on his career
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The Yankees did fine with Arod at 3rd and Jeter at SS. Derek was a class act. He's a Yankee Legend amongst Yankee Legends.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
arod was a much better SS than Jeter. they would have been better than "fine" had jeter moved over instead of arod. Also, his ego apparently wouldnt allow for him to vacate SS at the end of his career either when it was very apparent he couldnt field the position nearly as well as others on the team. Jeter really shouldnt have been a SS after his early 30s. his range was terrible. I am not sure I buy that he was such a class act when he put his ego above the moves that were best for the team. seems more selfish than class act to me.
Not a popular opinion saying such things about Mr. Yankee, but it is the truth
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm not so sure A-Rod was the better defender in 2006; neither was ever Ozzie Smith and both were great hitters who also played short, not great shortstops who could also hit (I hope that makes sense but neither was the best defensive SS in the league at that point). He very well may have been better but Jeter was still pretty solid at that point in 2006, the incumbant and the captain. A-Rod moving to 3rd was part of the deal, anyway - they weren't going to move Jeter off of shortstop at that point and it was about managing TWO egos, not just one. Since the Yankees were perrenial contenders and won the World Series in 2009, I'm unsure how much it hurt the team during the beginning of the A-Rod - Jeter years. A-Rod started to have his own roids related hip issues soon after and would see his own defensive ability fall off soon after. Lastly, I would say that while the Yankees were in decline starting in 2010, Derek Jeter and specifically his defense could hardly be considered anywhere near the top of the list of problems. A-Rod's lying and suspensions, Mark Texeira and his consistent DL trips and terrible pitching signings were mostly to blame.
Watching players get old sucks - only Mo showed no signs of aging - but still, I never thought Jeter was a liabilty at any point. Even his last healthy season (2012) is a great season when measured against just about anyone except a younger Derek Jeter.
And again, I am a biased Yankee fan who has already conceded that Yount was probably his equal.
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It’s only your opinion and your entitled.
Oh and I’m a Yankee hater FWIW
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
+1
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+1
Arods first season in NY was 04. by 04, Jeter was a really really bad SS. even historically bad. let the numbers talk:
(most of these numbers come from FanGraphs)
04-10 Jeter was ranked 18 of 24 qualifying SS in Defensive Rating
03-14 Jeters Defensive runs saved was worst amongst SS with a horrifying -152. That means he was 152 runs worse than the average SS in MLB. In fact, he was 2x as bad as the second to last ranked SS, Hanley Ramirez (-73)
among all defenders during that time period, Jeter cost his team more runs than any other defender in baseball. Prince Fielder was second worst with -95 runs.
03-14 Jeter is dead last among SSin ultimate Zone Rating
03-14 Jeter is last in Range Runs, and by a lot. his -99.9 was 54.6 runs worse than the second worst defender during that period.
now, even if you dont put much weight into defensive stats, when you see that Jeter is last in so many of them, it is very telling how bad he was as a SS. Not only was he last in these stats, he was way way behind the second worst defender.
AROID by the way, had the 3rd best DRS at SS before coming to NY in 04. Who would you rather have at SS? If you take emotion out of the equation, the clear answer is AROID.
When ego and hero worship come before the good of the team, that does not come across as a team leader or captain like behavior. It comes across as selfish.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What started out as a nice let's look at two HoFers thread has turned to classic Jeter bashing rather quickly.
Have fun...
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I agree......not only was Jeter a great player......he was also a great person who never to my knowledge got into any trouble in public life. That is pretty amazing for New York athletes.
Maybe that was the intent all along. It sure seems that way. I agree with Dallas’s assessment in this case
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I feel the same way.
Why bash a guy that you never met and who doesn't even play anymore? I don't understand the impulse, its not like he is annoying in the present either, like some former athletes
Also stop whining about AROD , the guy is great in the booth. Put him and big papi together in the studio and I won't miss a game . I never knew the guy had such personality and such knowledge of the game , he's impressive in his new job.
Why do you bozos care about steroids anyway? As long as they doesn't fill up a big pail of steroids and conk me on the head with it I could care less who takes them . Its a proven fact that watching a player who uses roids won't give you brain cancer , or shrivel your testicles, or make your hair fall out. It might do it to the player but he is willing to take the chance thats up to him. I want to be entertained or I'm not going to watch. One way or another make it happen.
I truly doubt the Yankees would have been better off with Jeter at 3rd and Arod at short.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Of all the trash talk directed at Jeter, this one is a pet peeve of mine. Yes, AROID was a better SS, but the Jeter bashers always stop there even though it ought to be obvious that this is only half of the discussion. The other half? AROID was also a better third baseman than Jeter. And while there's no stats to prove it, I think there's every reason to think that AROID was "more better" at third than Jeter than he was at short. So the correct question to ask is not "who was better at short?", it's "are the Yankees better with AROID at third and Jeter at short, or with Jeter at third and AROID at short?" If you think the Yankees were wrong to put them where they did, make that case. I think they were right.
Dallas, what in the world would make you think AROID was a better third baseman than Jeter? Is it the zero career games Jeter appeared in at third that gives you that evidence? Or is it conjecture? Why do you think Jeter would have to move to third? He could have moved to second or possibly more appropriately, first. Jeter was so so bad at short, mostly because of his lack of range that he would have hurt the team least defensively at first. He did have pretty good hands.
I think you are stuck inside the box of the two players were only interchangeable, not that they could have moved the historically bad fielder to first. You really will have your work cut out to convince me that Jeter over aroid at ss was the proper baseball decision and not just catering to an overinflated ego.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have to say that of all the irrelevant arguments who was better at SS or 3B between these two HOF caliber infielders is a joke. Either playing SS would have worked fine. The Yankees decided to play Arod at 3rd, so what?
Joe, Jeter was a historically bad SS and arod was an average to above average SS. It is clear that this was not a baseball Decision, but one to placate Jeters ego. Their defense would have been better had Rodriguez played short. Jeter was certainly not "fine" at SS. He had good hands but terrible terrible range. That was the reason behind the Jeter hop throws from the third base side of short. He couldn't get to balls in the hole like an average SS and couldn't take the time to plant his feet for a strong throw.
When Jeter lost his lateral movement, he refused to move to a more suitable position to the detriment of his team. Even ripken agreed to move to third when he couldn't play SS anymore
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, he wasn't, and any argument that follows from that point is necessarily going to be flawed. Jeter was a good shortstop when he was young, and got worse as he got older as shortstops do. There was absolutely nothing "historic" about Jeter's play at short, either good or bad. The weakest part of his fielding was his arm, which is why moving him to third would have been stupid, and why the Yankees never considered it. Your idea that they leave third base empty and have Jeter play some other position and bench whichever non-third baseman was playing that position is amusing, but that obviously wasn't an option the Yankees considered, either.
When the Yankees acquired AROID, their third baseman was Aaron Boone, who sat out AROID's entire first season with injuries. Option 1: put the new guy who can play third in Boone's spot. Your option: make the entire team play musical chairs with their positions and play everyone out of their best position to accommodate the new guy. The Yankees, wanting to win baseball games and not being infected with Jeter bashing fever, chose Option 1, the sane option.
No Dallas, jeters range, or lack thereof, was his the weakest part of his defense. The second half of his career he couldn't move laterally like a mlb SS should. He was just such a Yankee "legend" that he couldn't be moved. The arm wasn't great either. I'm not saying they should have put Jeter at third, I am saying first would have been a better option. And if you really don't think Jeter was a historically bad SS, especially after age 30 or so, you must not be looking at the numbers which surprises me as you fancy yourself a fan of statistics and empirical evidence. He was a really really bad SS.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Dallas, if you really think Jeters play at SS wasn't terrible during the period in question, prove it statistically. He was so far behind in a number of metrics that it is nearly indefensible.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig,
The decision about who to play at short (and so many other baseball decisions) was not motivated solely by who would do the best defensive job as shortstop. Like most things in the world, the decision involved MANY massive egos (not one or even two) and the legacy of one of the most successful franchises in terms of marketing, popularity AND winning in the history of sports. As is almost always the case, the Yankees handled it well, won yet another championship and created a narrative that helped both players - A-Rod is 'here to win and willing to do whatever it takes to win' and Jeter gets to become the clear/eliminate his primary competition for best shortstop of the era (and maybe all time) in one fell swoop. All the while, the Yankees are helping the baseball player they raised from Kalamazoo to Cooperstown just a little bit more as any decent franchise would. You can keep hammering away at the trees all you like. Just acknowledge the forest.
If you do feel like building more steam for your argument, there's a very good Grantland article that covers this whole thing and you can add even more chestnuts to the 'Derek Jeter, worst defensive shortstop of all time' according to all the advanced baseball metrics (a good 75% percent of which have been produced and authored in and near Boston, for what it's worth).
I also love the fact that the worst shortstop in the league also happened to win the Gold Glove in 2004, 2005 and 2006. I put as much stock in defensive metrics as Gold Gloves; it's just rather amusing.
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First, many HOF players have been asked to change position for the good of the team. See Banks, Carew, Ripken, biggio and yount to name some. Did these guys not have strong egos? Of course they did. But they did what was best for their teams.
As far as gold gloves, is there any award with less value? I don't think so. Ask palmiero in 1999.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And leave third base empty? Wonderful plan; I'm shocked the Yankees didn't do that.
Yes Dallas, they definitely should leave 3rd empty. Good grief. You do realize there are other ways to acquire talent, no? Put the historically bad SS on first, the good SS at SS and maybe sign or trade for a good third baseman. Not that difficult.
I know you can't believe Jeter was a serviceable SS at this time, you just don't like to loose an argument. You are a numbers guy, just look at the numbers. They are historically bad.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You are faulting Jeter, and NY, for not using a player who was not on their roster at third base. Silly as that sounds, that is exactly what you're doing. In the real world, the Yankees options at third base were AROID and Jeter. In the hypothetical world in your imagination, I agree that they should have played Chipper Jones at third, or brought back Brooks Robinson from 1964 and played him at third. There's no shortage of quality alternatives at third base when you aren't limited by rosters or the laws of nature.
You falsely claim that Jeter wasn't "serviceable" at shortstop, but then claim the better alternative was to play someone who didn't exist at third. Tell me who you would have had the Yankees play at third or the question of winning or losing an argument is moot - you aren't even making an argument. If you want to conjure into being a high quality third baseman who hits better than the Yankee whose roster position he would have taken, and assume that the Yankees didn't have to give away anything to get him, then I agree you win the argument; it's just such a silly argument, though, that it hardly seems worth winning.
I am not a Jeter or Aroid expert, but in seeing them play against my Minnesota Twins, I would say Jeter was a very good SS and Aroid was just as good in the field but a MUCH better hitter. The better hitter usually plays 3rd.
Who really cares who played where here? I doubt the Yankees lost many games because their 3rd baseman was a better(?) fielder than their SS.
Fielding % for both players about the same. That's the only fielding stat I trust. I do think Alex was better in the field, but moving Jeter to 1B would have been silly. If Arods arm WAS better, putting him at third makes sense as well.
This Rtot number says Kirby Puckett was a -14 player Hahahahahahahaha!
Jeter won 5 GG, using the Palmiero example is kind of sad here. Winning one can be a fluke, but if you get 5 at SS, it means something to me.
Without looking, I believe palmiero won three or four. Still a valueless award. Many times given to the fielder with the better offensive stats if they were similar in the field.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
You don't think the yanks could have signed a third baseman after securing a rod in the off season? Or made a trade for another option at third? It isn't rocket science and it happens every year. They didn't have either option though, because the ego of their SS at the time wouldn't allow for it. Jeter wouldn't move off SS whether it was better for the team or not
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.