1971 Topps Thurman Munson PSA 9 (MC)

cuda440

Does this black-bordered card in PSA 9(MC) rank higher, lower or about the same as a '71 Munson PSA 7 with no qualifiers?

1951WheatiesPremium

I'd take Yogi Berra over both.

Not disrespecting either player - Bench was incredible as was Thurman, a Yankee icon in his own right. Off the top of my head I'd probably go with this Top 5:

Yogi
Bench
Pudge
Campanella
Dickey

shagrotn77

Scan?

cuda440

sorry I don't have scans. I don't own the PSA 9(MC) card. It has sharp corners but is obviously very off-center. A PSA 7 which I do own is better centered but the corners aren't as good. Currently no working scanner available.

Brick

Without seeing the cards I would prefer the PSA 7. MC cards usually have little eye appeal. It is an OC card taken to extremes.

cuda440

I tend to agree. It seems going to a PSA 9(MC) card from a straight 7 would be a downward move or equivalent to a straight PSA 6. Sideways or lateral move at best but unlikely.

thefinn

I remember watching Therman Munson. One of the best catchers of all time.

cuda440

Munson was no Johnny Bench but I would certainly put him somewhere in the top 20. Great defensively and a clutch hitter especially in the postseason.

cuda440

Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

bishop

Old enough to have seen both play. Was fortunate to see Berra, Mantle, Ford and Maris in the 64 Series against the Cardinals. Bench was the more complete player defensively and offensively.

But then there is the Bob Uecker in the first row

cuda440

'64 -- 3 years before I entered the world and the only thing that jumps out in my mind baseball-related was the Phillies' historic collapse that season lol..

http://www.mcall.com/sports/baseball/phillies/mc-phillies-1964-collapse-0918-20140918-story.html

1951WheatiesPremium

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

Complete respect for your opinion - I wouldn't have a problem with anyone listing Bench first and there's no Bench bashing at all from me - he's worthy for certain.

That said, out of love for Yogi I have to mention these two things:

1) Yogi Berra is often overlooked as a player because he had a larger than life persona and because he played for Yankee teams where he could be easily overshadowed by guys like Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle among others. That said, Yogi Berra was on the only Yankee team that featured BOTH Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle. And yet it was Yogi Berra who won the American League MVP award in that 1951 season. He also won it in back to back seasons in 1954 and 1955, for a total of three; people often list the rings but forget the other impressive hardware he won. In addition, Yogi Berra had a quality that is becoming more rare these days: you couldn't strike him out. I don't know how many studies have been done about the correlation between not striking out and winning (queue the stat guys!) but Yogi never struck out more than 32 times in a season (what?!?!) and 414 times in his career.* I'm not going to bore you with other stats but that deserves a mention because, well, it deserves a mention. Here's more stats for those of you who want them, but it's not really my thing:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/berrayo01.shtml

2) Yogi Berra played for the Yankees from 1946 to 1963.** He played all over the diamond (including catcher) until settling in there as the full time every day guy in 1949. After 9 seasons every day at the position, the Yankees started to groom young star Elston Howard to form a catcher platoon both because he was a very good catcher in his own right and to keep Yogi's potent bat in the lineup and extend his career some (as is done with all catchers who can hit); so, Yogi's last full season catching was 1959. Why is this relevant? Rawlings only began to hand out the Gold Glove Awards in 1957 and for what its worth, Sherm Lollar won in each year from 1957-1959 in the American League and Elston Howard also won it back to back in '63-64. So I think we can forgive Yogi some for not winning any Gold Gloves; but from what I have heard he was a pretty good defensive catcher. Maybe Bench was better; I only saw the tail end of his career, myself, and no Yogi other than on the YES Network and MLB Classic games.

*To put this in perspective, Yankee phenom Aaron Judge will likely surpass 414 K's by the end on this season if he stays healthy.

**In what was basically a gag, Yogi played four games for the Mets in 1965. But they count, and added 3 Ks to his total.

cuda440

the Gold Glove award didn't even start until '57 so in fairness to Berra I'm sure he would have won at least a few had it started earlier. Berra's stats were better than I previously thought. I'm still siding with Bench as he was vital to those great Big Red Machine teams.

https://mlbcomparisons.com/yogi-berra-vs-johnny-bench-comparison/

Aaron Judge had 208 strikeouts in 2017 and already has 50 in just 38 games in 2018 so he'll most likely eclipse last years mark.

JoeBanzai

I have the book on Yogi written by Allen Barra, at the end of the book, the author goes into great detail using every imaginable stat rating system and Bench and Berra come out about equal. Bench had a few better "peak" years, but Yogi was a bit more consistent.

When bringing up fielding, I seem to remember Berra went close to a year without an error. Gold Gloves should not be brought into the comparison.

I also like the fact that Berra struck out much less yet his HR per AB was about the same.

From 1950 to 1956 Berra was top 4 in MVP every year with two wins, on a team featuring Mickey for most of those years.

markj111

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

@cuda440 said:
Bench revolutionized the catching position. 10 Gold Gloves versus 0 GG for Berra. I'd say Bench easily. Munson was great but realistically somewhere down around 11-20. Others may not have Munson in the all-time top 20 at all. These debates are very subjective and could go on forever. I know Berra's got more WS titles but played long before my time so admittedly I have a bias towards Bench who I saw play and to me was the best-ever hands down.

markj111

Comparing GGs between Bench and Berra is a silly argument. Berra was 32 the first year GGs were awarded. Bench won his last one at age 29. Bench was obviously a better defensive catcher. Offensively they were a wash. OPS+ was 125 v 126.

JoeBanzai

@markj111 said:
Comparing GGs between Bench and Berra is a silly argument. Berra was 32 the first year GGs were awarded. Bench won his last one at age 29. Bench was obviously a better defensive catcher. Offensively they were a wash. OPS+ was 125 v 126.

I would't agree that Bench was obviously a better defensive catcher. Berra wasn't as good at the beginning of his career, but once he learned how to catch, he was very very good. Slight edge to Bench.