1865 2-Cent "Plain" and "Fancy" 5

TommyType

This may fall into the category of “why is grass green”....

But why don’t the TPG’s identify the 1865 2-cent “Fancy 5” and “Plain 5” as standard practice? Most are just labeled "1865", and that's it.

The case for doing it:

• The PCGS 2-Cent "Major Varieties" registry set breaks them out as separate items, using the separate coin numbers. So, an 1865 (no designation) won't even FIT in the registry.
• They customarily identify the myriad of 1873 open and closed 3 that exist in most denominations. (In fact, most of the 1873’s MUST be identified, since there isn’t a generic 1873).

The case against:

• The difference is fairly small.
• Most people don’t care.

(Ok....I think I answered my own question).

Any other identification pet peeves out there?

Raybo

I care TT.

Raybo

I know PCGS now uses the fancy 5 designation, not sure about NGC.

TommyType

@Raybo said:
I know PCGS now uses the fancy 5 designation, not sure about NGC.

They CAN use it. But generally, PCGS seems to use the "generic" 1865 coin number.

Now, they don't appear to require a variety fee to pick one or the other. I sent a crossover, and just asked that the "Plain 5" coin number be used....and they did it. (I'm assuming the reason is that there isn't really a reference required to check(?). It's not like it's a cherry picker's variety, or anything).

Now I guess I buy a "Fancy 5", and get it re-holdered/regraded/whatever....

ricko

Are there pictures of the two digits showing the details? Cheers, RickO

RogerB

@ricko said:
Are there pictures of the two digits showing the details? Cheers, RickO

Nope. This is a "super secret" variety known only to the Illuminated and the Dark Lord.

ricko

@RogerB... and I suppose I will need the password and secret hand shake.....Cheers, RickO

RogerB

They've gone beyond secret hand shakes and into high technology. There are now a secret tongue roll AND a secret Milk Shake!

TommyType

@ricko said:
Are there pictures of the two digits showing the details? Cheers, RickO

Coin Facts:

I know what you're thinking: "Oooooh....Fancy!"

ricko

@TommyType....Thank you... and yes... Fancy that.... Cheers, RickO

koynekwest

Does anyone know the relative scarcity of them?

TommyType

@koynekwest said:
Does anyone know the relative scarcity of them?

If I dug into my references, I might find a better answer....(not available at the moment)...

But I'm led to believe the "Fancy 5" is the more common to some extent, though not wildly so. The PCGS price guide prices for the unspecified 1865 mirrors the price they quote for the "Fancy 5" in all grades. "Plain 5" are priced about 20% higher or so at lower grades, and significantly higher in high grade red.

In this case, Plain is better(?)

koynekwest

Thanks, TommyType!

RogerB

Nice comparison photos. Completely different digit logo.

Raybo

@TommyType said:

@koynekwest said:
Does anyone know the relative scarcity of them?

If I dug into my references, I might find a better answer....(not available at the moment)...

But I'm led to believe the "Fancy 5" is the more common to some extent, though not wildly so. The PCGS price guide prices for the unspecified 1865 mirrors the price they quote for the "Fancy 5" in all grades. "Plain 5" are priced about 20% higher or so at lower grades, and significantly higher in high grade red.

In this case, Plain is better(?)

Yup, Fancy 5 is more common.

jesbroken

Looks like the same as the 1865 fancy/plain Indian head cent.

RogerB

It would appear to deserve the same recognition/cataloging as 1864 small and large motto varieties. The same would apply to 1865 cents.

(The "fancy five" reminds me of Anthony Paquet's style.)

TommyType

@RogerB said:
It would appear to deserve the same recognition/cataloging as 1864 small and large motto varieties. The same would apply to 1865 cents.

(The "fancy five" reminds me of Anthony Paquet's style.)

Oooooh.....Good call! I didn't realize there were "plain" and "fancy" Indian cents! That's a much better comparison than the "open/closed" 3 on 1873 coinage that I was using!

And turns out, PCGS doesn't HAVE a coin number for a "generic, none specified" 1865 Indian cent. They are forced to identify the 5-type.

In my fantasy world, THAT is what I want them to do with the 2-cent coins!

RogerB

If Bill Fivaz will add it to the Cherry Picker's Guide, the TPGs will probably recognize it.

DoughDeo

The Cherrypickers' Guide lists varieties specific to the "Plain 5" separate from varieties specific to the "Fancy 5". e.g. there's a "Plain 5" RPD listed as FS-301, and there's a "Fancy 5" RPD listed as FS-1301.

The 2018 Redbook has a footnote for the 1865 2c.: "Varieties show the tip of the 5 either plain or curved."

RogerB

Ahhhh...that clarifies things. Thanks!

(I don't have a current CPG.)