Partrick/Norweb 1792 Quarter (J-13) in White metal crossed from NGC to PCGS
EagleEye
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TrueView:
Downgraded from XF45 NGC to SP40 PCGS
I don't think the NGC holder was good for such a soft metal coin!
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Comments
Oh my goodness. Was this not realized until PCGS cracked it out to reholder AFTER grading??
you gotta be kidding me! that's awful!
I would think a third party grading service would be on the hook for damaging a piece like that with their stupid prongs.
They make a better holder for soft metal pieces like pewter and tin.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Oh, the humanity! I see our hosts took the high road and didn't put "Rim Damaged by NGC Holder" on the label.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The rim damage is really obvious, and horrible modern-holder damage. There's also a big scratch at 9 o'clock on the reverse. I wonder if the downgrade was a net grade due to the rim damage?
Given how soft the medal is, I'm also wondering if the rim can be adequately repaired.
Here's the cert info:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35252313
Would ATS pay for the damage under their grade guarantee?
ATS and PCGS do offer "full-support" holders like the following mentioned by Broadstruck here. I wonder what kind of holder it's in now. I hope it's not in another regular prong holder.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/972728/what-does-composition-or-lava-mean-for-these-high-relief-medals#latest
Why the hello was a piece like this put in ANY holder?
The PCGS gaskets are much softer than the NGC ones. Looking at the all the pictures provided above, I can't decide whether it was damaged only by going into the NGC holder, or also being removed from it.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Is it in a PCGS prong holder now?
50% lead. Ouch!
Ngc switched to a full silicone gasket about 5 years ago for white metal tokens after I walked a 1 of 2 known token over to their booth to show their Exonumia manager with squared rims at the prongs. Any type of prong is bad for white metal as it needs full peripheral support pressure wise and I've since sent anything white metal I needed slabbed to ICG. This recession is the worst I've ever seen and tomorrow I'm going to the bank to bring home my whole collection as I think I might still have a couple white metal tokens which might still be in pronged holders?
Sold for $376,000.00 in the ATS holder.
Wonder what it's worth now.
NGC offered to buy the token off me for what I paid if I supplied an invoice. Even with the rims slightly squared the token was still worth considerably more than what I paid as I ripped it in a late night auction. In a situation like this once it's no longer in their holder they are off the hook. With the prongs tight against the rim removal might even cause further damage?
Crying buddy
Ugh. Not good.
With the rim damage . . . $2.50!
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
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There are no words
Seeing that picture, hurts......a lot. Sad.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
This is sad. It looked like a nice piece.
Raw pics above, slabbed below. Not sure about the photo in the middle.
I'm not convinced that the coin was damaged by the slab.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
With four known and only this one in private hands, I'd cut it some slack.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I am convinced! Sure as hell looks like the dents are where the prongs were. I have hated the LOOK of those prongs since they came out, now there is another reason they are bad!
I feel for people at both grading services that must have felt absolutely sick upon seeing what happened to this coin.
The question is now one of what should be done next. If it were possible for the shape to be restored such that it was undetectable, should it be done? Would that open up a slippery slope with regard to TPGs and how they see coin dctring or repairing, or is this such a special case that it wouldn't?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
This.
"I am convinced! Sure as hell looks like the dents are where the prongs were. I have hated the LOOK of those prongs since they came out, now there is another reason they are bad!"
Wow... such a shame... I believe any attempt at restoration would be a mistake... It is what it is...Too valuable a piece of history to attempt any 'fix'.... Cheers, RickO
I can't help but think of this, even if Mr. Bean doesn't work at a TPG:
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That is painful to look at, but given it's rarity...and now it's "uniqueness"...I still could not afford it.
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I remember back when slabs first came out seeing California gold pieces that were bent from being shoved into slab rings.
Absolutely no question that the prongs damaged the coin.
TD
FACT: Unfortunately, the soft metal of the coin became damaged by the prongs.
FACT: The TPGS that caused the damage offered to make restitution!
FACT: The owner decided to keep the coin as he got it for a really good price.
FACT: In this condition, it is probably worth closer to the really good price the owner paid.
What else is there to add?
Items 2-4 sound like you’re talking about Broadstruck’s token he mentioned above, not the J-13 pattern in the OP.
Wow, that's terrible. Hopefully NGC takes serious steps to house soft metal coins in safe holders. It's not just the money lost to the owner, but also the permanent damage to a significant piece of American history.
I don't know enough about Photoshop and other image editing software to know if the apparent damage in the OP pics is actually damage or just the result of a sloppy job at editing out the NGC prongs.
Anyway, I would like to see PCGS images, since that's the only easy way to get a good look at the coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@EagleEye mentioned the image is a PCGS TrueView in the first post.
The confusion may be that it's actually a PCGS "CoinFacts" image, which is often a TrueView without the background.
Here's the PCGS image with the TrueView background to make it official. Effects of prongs still present.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35252313
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I posted:
FACT: Unfortunately, the soft metal of the coin became damaged by the prongs.
FACT: The TPGS that caused the damage offered to make restitution!
FACT: The owner decided to keep the coin as he got it for a really good price.
FACT: In this condition, it is probably worth closer to the really good price the owner paid.
What else is there to add?
After @Zoins posted this: "Items 2-4 sound like you’re talking about Broadstruck’s token he mentioned above, not the J-13 pattern in the OP."
I do have something to add. Looks like I misquoted some one because I couldn't read English and...
DON'T BELIEVE ALL THE FACTS you read around here!
Hope the owner contacts NGC and lets us know how this is resolved.
OK, now I'm convinced. This really sucks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Handling and encapsulating requirements for soft material should warrant special/different accommodating procedures and materials used.......or followed.
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Solution? Send it back to NGC, get it put back in their holder, and the damage disappears... haha
Disclaimer: I graded, authenticated, conserved coins at NGC for over a decade.
I consider this is an unfortunate LEARNING EXPERIENCE. Who knew something like this could happen?
I assure all of you that the TPGS's are not in the business to damage your coins. How the TPGS handles this case is what counts. The coin probably cannot be fixed.
And please don't try to object to my use of "learning experience" because that is exactly what it is: an unintentional occurrence that no one had any idea it would occur.
What a nightmare. A treasure damaged by the people entrusted to protect it.
NGC could offer to buy it, but that would not undo the damage caused.
We talk about "attrition" in coins like it's a thing of the past. And it has slowed down. But time marches on and wins eventually. Every beautiful gem represents an unbroken string of owners never making any mistakes.
Pure nonsense. You deserve a big, fat disagree. Accidents happen. Perhaps EVERY major TPGS deserves to be raked over the coals for slabbing counterfeits too. However, until you PROVE that you can do a better job, keep your rake in the shed. Otherwise...
PS That goes for your buddies who agree with your post. Let's wait and see the outcome. Perhaps then I'll get my rake out with you.
This could be the image of the coin still in an NGC slab. I've had a few examples where my cross-overs were photographed with NGC prongs still showing in the PCGS True View.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Dah...You think. As I wrote: The coin has been damaged by the grading service. I don't think it can be fixed as if done the coin would now be "altered and repaired." As for "outcome," IMO, the TPGS needs to make the owner "whole" for the ACCIDENTAL damage the holder caused to the coin. Is that a little easier to understand?
PS AFAIK ONLY 4 DENTS WERE CAUSED BY THE INSERT PRONGS! But who is counting? The damage is done. :
Oh my, I
should have thought better...."Learning experiences shouldn't occur on historically important artifacts.'' Apparently not. 
PS I should have just left a disagree to the offending post.
PPS As to this: "I wonder if extended testing is part of why it took PCGS so long to come out with their own gasket style holder?" You mean the one with 6 Prongs? BTW, I guess all that "EXTENDED TESTING" would have prevented the counterfeit slabs on the market too - right?
@FadeToBlack said: "10, 2 and 4 on the obverse, 2, 4, and 7ish on the reverse."
Thanks, that's a great point! You know what, I'm going to start counting the number of clips on a coin differently. Two for each clip. One for the obverse side and one for the reverse side of the same clip. I hope the error guys understand my reasoning.
If these pictures are accurate, people should probably check the reeding on their gold coins for NGC prong damage as well. Especially the heavier coins.
And especially variably-sized world gold coins.
Insider2, you posted 4 FACTS earlier in this thread with full caps, bolding and emojis. 3 of them turned out to be nonsensical due to your inability to follow the flow of this thread. I appreciate your mea culpa when you realized your error, but maybe take it to heart and turn down the "volume" on your posts until you're reasonably sure it's not happening again?