can a world class coin collection be built in complete secrecy
Gazes
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My question is whether it would be possible in this day and age to build a world class collection of classic coins in complete secrecy and only the owner know of the collection's existence. Therefore, that would eliminate a collection where the collector worked with one dealer for a majority of the coins. I know the Tyrant collection was largely unknown til recently but even that collector had a couple of dealers who knew what he had (i believe Ira Goldberg was one---btw great coinweek video of goldberg talking about the tyrant collection). Curious as to people's thoughts.
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Unless all dealers are idiots ..... this won’t happen.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I don't think so, and frankly, I don't know why you'd want it to be. If you are chasing something, I would think that if more people knew, more items would be shown to you. I suppose you might worry about them also raising the prices, but the fact that they wouldn't be your only option should prevent that.
An alternative thought...the actual collection owner COULD remain in the shadows. But the collection itself would probably end up getting out. Somebody buying up big ticket items gets people talking, and I have to imagine that people would notice if a lot of big ticket stuff was changing hands...even if they didn't know into whose hands they were going.
It would be extremely unlikely, this is because collectors (generally speaking) don't have the connections or know how to buy the best coins and know where certain coins to better their collection. This is where having a smaller dealer network is important. It worked for Tyrant because his dealer contingent stayed quiet about it, most likely due to the collector's wishes. Further, I agree with the above statement that the collector may be able to stay in the shadows but the collection is known. If my memory serves, Simpson began collecting with the pedigree "BRS" on his slabs as he was not ready to put his name out yet but his collection was more or less known at that time.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
If you are a scrupulous dealer and you have a client or clients who want you to keep mum about his / her / their purchases ... not to mention, if you realize wherefrom your bread be buttereth ... you keep your mouth shut, forever if required, about who your clients are and what they are buying. Sure, big-ticket items get people talking, but dealers who value their word are not the ones doing all the yak-yak.
Kind regards,
George
I don't like secrecy or excessive privacy; they smack of "shady" activity to me. I thought the purpose of a lot of hobbies was shared enjoyment and furthering the scientific endeavors connected to numismatics. But my ideological focus is more academic than business.
Thanks for the responses---some of you mentioned working with a dealer who keeps the "secret". I feel this was largely done with the Tyrant Collection. A spectacular collection who even many top dealers did not know existed. However, my main question in the OP is could someone build a world class collection without anyone realizing what has been built (I understand that some dealers may know the collector had certain coins but my question is whether it can be done where no one but the collector knew the vast majority of his holdings).
its possible to do it with one dealer who treats confidentially, but you need one trustworthy interface to the outside world of dealers and auction houses.
Loose lips ....
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not impossible, but very highly unlikely. Even if a collector tried to do it by themselves, their presence at auctions would be very telling.
The "insider" world of coin collecting is much like a soap opera. He said She said. Word gets around.
Pete
Wondering if your "secrecy potential" goes up if you only chase the 4th or 5th best known? Some of the "red flags" might not go up among the top tier dealers....and if you built an entire, logical, hand selected collection of all 4th, or 5th, or 10th best known, I still think it could qualify as a "world class" collection, no?
I will say, the independent streak in me would give a big thumbs up to the guy who CAN do a "world class" collection without a bunch of dealers chasing coins for him. Maybe that's just me.....Mr. AU, 1000th best known.
It depends on just how "World Class" is defined and in what area? Is this limited to US coins? This may be somewhat easier to do with another series, like ancients, or Chinese where there are other world class collections being built.
The US market is better documented and would be harder to keep quiet. But something like a top grade type set would probably be easier than a particular series.
To keep things quiet, it seems that one would have to use multiple dealers as agents to make it look like the material was going to different end users (collectors). And the more dealers who help, the more likely that word will get out, so a balance must be struck utilizing several very trusted agents.
Nope.
I would think it’s easier now a days to do this with the internet and using third parties to buy from dealers. I could buy the most expensive coin at a Heritage auction and nobody would know if I was bidding from home, which most people do now anyway. Anyone can view a coin, so that’s not a clue. If I wanted to remain anonymous with a dealer I wouldn’t have to disclose my identity, I could pay through a business, a third party, or wire money. Dealers could still contact via email or a cellphone and never no who I am.
"World Class" collection, probably not in today's environment. Pretty darned impressive collection, absolutely.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
What is your definition of "World Class"?
For some older but mostly ignored series of US coinage (i.e., nickel three cent pieces?); and for more recent series of US coinage (i.e. SBA dollars), individual coins (raw or slabbed) are not very expensive. A collector of these coins can probably operate "under the radar" and assemble a collection of high grade, eye appealing coins in this type of series.
It may be that doing the above in non US coin series is even more possible.
The resulting collection(s) would have fantastic eye appeal and grab one's attention if put on display. While this type of collection may not have a large market value (one measure of "World Class Collection") it may well be viewed as "World Class" by many.
You could use several agents to buy no more than a couple of pieces for you at a time.
several asked how I would define "world class"---I think that is a fair point given my OP. I won't pretend to know what makes a collection world class but I would say any collection that contained all condition census examples for a date collection of classic coins would qualify
Based on that definition, I would say for sure, yes. I have done it. Depends on the popularity or profile of the coins or series in question and the confidence or ignorance of the collector to go it alone.
How can I answer this without outing a secret?
http://www.shieldnickels.net
Sure buy the coins through a trusted conduit.
Definitely possible.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
The only answer to your answer is... only the owner of the 1933 $20 would be able to tell you!
absolutely you can-and I HAVE done it.
you buy quietly. don't give out Want Lists. Do not register a set. I can do it because I buy many coins for many people. so I have no pattern that looks like a collection
just did a huge million dollar plus deal deal combining a registry set with a non registry and creating one of the greatest collections ever. not changing the set listing-no reason too. not every collector has an ego.
"Client who wishes to remain anonymous" has been building an amazing collection for decades.
ANA LM-6166
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interesting responses ranging from no to yes and everywhere in between
If specialist is who I think it is, then you can darn sure believe it.
The Tyrant Collector has been around for 30 years. he does not attend shows and usually phone bids or has his rep at auctions. he just goes about his collecting quietly. he does not need to have his sets registered. he certainly seeks no publicity if he buys a big coin (he owns the King of Siam set).
A handful of us knew he existed. He is a perfect example of how to build a world class collection with out any one really knowing. If he was not coaxed to display his coins, no one would ever know he existed still. There are others out there.
Someone investing in numismatic material for financial privacy or otherwise IMO would not invest in classic coins but bullion AGE close to melt and the most liquid thing in numismatics.
The post above is a good answer in terms of classic coins.
First step is to think like a very wealthy person. The rest will become obvious.
Challenge. Of course it is possible but most collectors like to share in the experience of building such a collection.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Sure. Build a time machine and go back to pick up pocket change.
Under the radar? Yes. Not one other person knowing? Not possible. Even one of the largest current mysteries....who owns the 1933$20...there are multiple peeps in the know.
A peep in the know ---
For a point of reference, how high in a registry (like PCGS registered sets) would your "secret" collection need to be compared to, in order to be considered world class? The top set only? Top 10? Top 50? Top 100?
it does not have to be a high number registry set to be world class. It can be a $50-$100 million collection of everything in mid grades.
Richmond was world class? Didn’t seem so at the time...
In my humble opinion it is possible.
For example, what if the person assembling the collection works in the industry and is known for buying world class coins to sell to their customers.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
I have helped build two major 8-figure collections that are completely unknown to anyone outside of the company, each of which would absolutely blow minds if they were ever displayed. The owners are entirely anonymous otherwise. As mentioned above, this is something that really can only be accomplished with the help of one trusted professional (if you buy directly from auction houses, you can't hide your identity or collecting interests).
I'm actually stunned whenever I see a dealer or dealers working on behalf of mega-collectors and bragging about it - it's the opposite of serving the client.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Given this definition, I think that you could quietly buy some coins condition census at auction and perhaps work with a couple discreet dealers via private treaty transactions. When you starting buying 1913 Liberty Nickels and 1804 Dollars, which be considered part of a “world class collection,” it gets harder to hide.
Yes, but to clarify the term "complete", I would say a dealer or two may know about it, but ethically they would never talk about it.
when coins that are top pop but not necessarily a 1913 Liberty Nickel sells at auction (for instance think coins from the recent sale of Eagles from the Admiral collection) do dealers who specialize in those type of coins try to find out who the purchasers were and are they usually successful in obtaining that information? As one dealer wrote on his site recently---he likes to know where the bodies are buried.
Even if specialists don't know, the auction houses do, so someone buying large numbers of important coins at auction can't maintain complete anonymity without an intermediary.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Just to mention: Disney buying Kissimmee through multiple buyers.
Intermediaries!!
Soooo easy to set up. Buyer hires one set of eyes (perhaps different ones for Early Copper and Walkers?), uses cut-out attorneys with letters of credit and bank wires for each purchase.
Yes, there are ways to use enough beards and aliases and other legally fictitious persons to do it, if you had the money and that is the way you wanted to do it.
"Virtual Secrecy" yes.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
@Gazes
There must be a way to do it discreetly but usually only the very rich sees the need of secrecy and the rest.....wishes others to notice IMHO