What's going on with this Lincoln proof?

dpoole

I just tried to photograph this 1954 Lincoln proof, and all of these squiggles showed up (they're visible in hand, but only when you look closely; I hadn't noticed them before). What am I seeing here?

ricko

Bacteria.... when you magnify that large the little critters become visible.... JK... Looks like post mint contamination of some sort...Was it in the cello envelopes? Perhaps exposed to heat? Just suggestions.. Cheers, RickO

lkeigwin

I would give that an acetone bath and shoot it again. Perhaps it acquired a thin veneer of something foreign which dried, leaving micro imperfections. Just a wild guess.
Lance.

dpoole

I'd thought acetone didn't work well on copper. Is that not so?

Azurescens

...cardboard particles from a 2x2 + humidity ?

WoodenJefferson

Dandruff...not you, Abe!

I hope things get worked out OK never seen this before.

Cameonut

I've never seen that pattern on a proof cent before.
I'd also suggest giving it a dip in acetone. It will not hurt the coin.

JBK

How was it stored? I am guessing dust or paper/cardboard fibers toned the coin.

dmwest

Lincoln has worms....

Insider2

@Cameonut said:
I've never seen that pattern on a proof cent before.
I'd also suggest giving it a dip in acetone. It will not hurt the coin.

It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

lkeigwin

@dpoole said:
I'd thought acetone didn't work well on copper. Is that not so?

Acetone is fine on copper.

The reason some folks thought otherwise (including me at one time) is that when acetone removes the oils and other contaminants from circulated copper the coin's appearance can change. Accumulated "grime" often enhances the look.

In addition circulated copper can look dried-out after an acetone bath. A little Blue Ribbon or CoinCare works wonders.

I wouldn't hesitate to use it on MS and proof copper. I have, even on MPL's.
Lance.

Insider2

@Cameonut said:
I've never seen that pattern on a proof cent before.
I'd also suggest giving it a dip in acetone. It will not hurt the coin.

It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

dpoole

It was in the Mint’s cellophane for years. After a while, I saw the staple had rusted, and put them all into flips. Bacteria may well have been active before that.

Incidentally, this feature didn’t show up on the other coins in the set: just the copper.

Thanks so much for all the observations!

Cameonut

@Insider2 said:

@Cameonut said:
I've never seen that pattern on a proof cent before.
I'd also suggest giving it a dip in acetone. It will not hurt the coin.

It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

I agree on the black specks - but I haven't seen very many of them. White flecks are a new one for me.

So what do you do to conserve them?

1Mike1

I agree it looks like cardboard particles from a flip or book. Acetone bath is probably a good idea.

AUandAG

Copper is naturally anti-bacterial as is silver. Not like it's that.

bob
I agree that acetone will not hurt this coin.

Insider2

This is not my best example (40X) on a nickel Proof I just came across. I'll find a better one!

As for the OP's coin, stick it under running water first and blow dry. IMO it is not cardboard dust. If still there, It should come off with Coin Care. Then remove the Care.

1Mike1

Another guess could be moisture that dried up on the coin?

Jimnight

One possibility may be something was spayed on the coin.

RogerB

Smooth, regular edges, no fibers, rectangular: plastic dust from packaging...?

dpoole

Here's the Lincoln after an 8-10 minute acetone dip this morning.

What do you make of THIS?

Insider2

SHOULD HAVE USED COIN CARE!

Azurescens

If any of you want, I can swab these for the bacteria and throw them on agar and break out the microscope. I'd need any other random coin you've kept in your home that you've handled to narrow it down

Remember though, bacteria fungi and molds have systems of growth that can be mapped out mathematically and imitate naturally occurring events like metal reactions and organic reactions.

BuffaloIronTail

EWWW. Something really got on that coin. I don't know if that stuff will come off.

Pete

dpoole

@Insider2 said:
SHOULD HAVE USED COIN CARE!

You think it's too late for Coin Care?

BuffaloIronTail

@Insider2 said:
SHOULD HAVE USED COIN CARE!

I agree.

And also I should have had a V8.

Pete

Insider2

@dpoole said:

@Insider2 said:
SHOULD HAVE USED COIN CARE!

You think it's too late for Coin Care?

Yes. It looks like that harsh chemical reacted with the stuff. Copper is so nasty to work on.

Cameonut

@dpoole said:
Here's the Lincoln after an 8-10 minute acetone dip this morning.

What do you make of THIS?

Very interesting reaction to a polar solvent. As mentioned above, I've never seen those white specks before, now they seem closer to black.

There now seems to be a black streak starting at the bridge of his nose. Do you know how that appeared? Looks like it was maybe touched by something which disturbed the material that we are trying to remove.

BillJones

Maybe somebody tried to put it in a cent board and it kept falling out of the hole. To make sure it stayed in place, they covered it with Scotch Tape.

dpoole

That white stuff seem to have done real damage to the surfaces. The acetone removed it, and left the pits, from the looks of things.

Could it have been PVC? I've never seen an infestation like that.

1Mike1

Looks like you uncovered more of what was there. I'm leaning towards damage caused by moisture. cardboard particles would have been removed with a bath.

Insider2

@1Mike1 said: "Cardboard particles would have been removed with a bath."

And left a black stain under each of them where the original surface reacted with the sulfur.

1Mike1

@Insider2 said:
@1Mike1 said: "Cardboard particles would have been removed with a bath."

And left a black stain under each of them where the original surface reacted with the sulfur.

But that lightening bolt coming from his eye is a game changer.

JBK

I am probably wrong but I still vote dust or fibers which revealed the damaged/stained areas once removed.

I guess that coin was done for many years ago. All that is happening now is the damage is being revealed or enhanced.

Insider2

As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

cmerlo1

@Insider2 said:
As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

That looks like the result of some kind of crystallization...

JBK

@cmerlo1 said:

That looks like the result of some kind of crystallization...

My metallurgical knowledge is a little rusty , but could that be something that occurred at the time of minting, rather than being a subsequent growth? I know that the force of minting can/does make the metal harder - could it at the same time change the metallurgy or crystalization or molecular structure (take your pick) of the metal?

I know that a large counterstamp (especially one in the form of small dies that create a design or letters in relief) can sometimes crack a coin, and I have personally seen this happen to proof Kennedys.

Insider2

Stuff comes off with conservation so not into the metal. Problem is, it will eventually harm the surface as on the OP's cent.

Cameonut

@Insider2 said:
As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

Interesting. I agree with Cmerlo1 that it looks like crystallization of some sort. I'm a little skeptical about some type of organism.

Does the obverse look the same?

AUandAG

after revisiting this thread I'm going to say: Is that really a proof coin? Rims sure don't look it. I think it's a business strike Philly.

bob

Insider2

@Cameonut said:

@Insider2 said:
As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

Interesting. I agree with Cmerlo1 that it looks like crystallization of some sort. I'm a little skeptical about some type of organism.

Does the obverse look the same?

I'm sorry, I always considered it a form of chemical crystallization too. Had a brain fart when posting in this thread.

@AUandAG said:
after revisiting this thread I'm going to say: Is that really a proof coin? Rims sure don't look it. I think it's a business strike Philly.

bob

Yes, it is a cameo proof nickel. Please post a business strike with flat frosted rims. You can possibly find one that will fit a partial image as I have posted.

AUandAG

@Insider2 said:

@Cameonut said:

@Insider2 said:
As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

Interesting. I agree with Cmerlo1 that it looks like crystallization of some sort. I'm a little skeptical about some type of organism.

Does the obverse look the same?

I'm sorry, I always considered it a form of chemical crystallization too. Had a brain fart when posting in this thread.

@AUandAG said:
after revisiting this thread I'm going to say: Is that really a proof coin? Rims sure don't look it. I think it's a business strike Philly.

bob

Yes, it is a cameo proof nickel. Please post a business strike with flat frosted rims. You can possibly find one that will fit a partial image as I have posted.

NOno, not talking about the nickle. I'm talking about the OP's cent.

bob

Insider2

I was talking about the nickel. The white things on the cent were raised on the coin. Most came off in the acetone. Unfortunately, the fibers (?) etched the surface under them. My magnified image of the OP's coin shows one of the white fibers still on the coin and the black specks remaining on the coin:

@dpoole can comment on the cent if he wishes. The nickel is in my "teaching set."

amwldcoin

That nickel went through the twilight zone!

@Insider2 said:
As I posted above: "Modern" Proofs that have not been cleaned often come with interesting patterns of (?). It is very common. Last week I conserved over a dozen Proofs (cents and nickels) with this type of flecks. I'll try to dig out an image. When they are black, I call them "flyspects." I never named the whitish flecks but Ricko has raised a good question. The white ones may actually be some type of an organism. Yikes! Microscopically, they do branch out like a growth!

This is typically what the "white" ones look like:

ColonelJessup

The coin was etched to DOA before it was removed from its original packaging. The dirty dried viscous detritus-filled gunk removed by the acetone burned that metal decades ago.

Bacteria? WTF? Bacteria?

Insider2

finger fungus from the mint worker who packaged the set?

TurboSnail

Am I the only one who actually thinking of starting a specialized collection for this type of specimen? It looks really cool.

dpoole

The 1954 cent is indeed a proof--unless, of course, the Mint switched the coin when they sent that set out to my grandmother just to jack with her.

The Mint can be an institutional jerk, I grant you--but this was the 50's we're talking about!

Insider2

@TurboSnail said:

Am I the only one who actually thinking of starting a specialized collection for this type of specimen? It looks really cool.

You are late to the party. LOL.

Insider2

Here is something to start looking for on Indian cents and early Lincolns. Very attractive crystallization.

TurboSnail

@Insider2 said:

@TurboSnail said:

Am I the only one who actually thinking of starting a specialized collection for this type of specimen? It looks really cool.

You are late to the party. LOL.

Fine.. Rephrasing my own words.

Am I the only commoner who actually thinking of starting a specialized collection for this type of specimen? It looks really cool.

Ha. You (researcher/numismatist) don't count.