Is this the begining of a detetiorated 1909VDB MPL reverse die-lots 0f photos added
FunwithMPL
Posts: 329 ✭✭✭
I was taking photos of my MPL's with my Leica EZ4W microscope and came across this. Sure looks like the start of die deterioration to me. Carl
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With so few minted...how much deterioration can one really expect to see, vs what the very first proof looked like coming off the press ? Now those 2 pics side by side would tell the story...
WS
WaterSport the first photo is my PCGS 64 MPL. This photo is of my PCGS 63MPL.
Honest question...What makes you think that?
looks like a lint or wire strike thru across the letters. Is that what you mean? There is some polishing and maybe a gouge evident, but hard to tell if its the same on both coins, just not struck up enough on one of them
If you look close at the top photo from the period to the left of the B, the metal looks raised to me. It continues over to the very bottom of the D. The bottom of the D and B are also raised above. Possible the start of the die starting to break?
I did not see that as raised material when I first looked at the coin picture.... There is evidence of the 'issue' across the two periods and the D....my first reaction was PMD... however, if it is raised material, that changes things. That being said, not sure why it would be raised - in continuous fashion - on the devices but no evidence in the fields.... Cheers, RickO
It certainly "looks" like deterioration, but at that magnification every flaw will stand out. The low mintage of MPL's would hint that the dies were not overused.
Most certainly even with the low mintage, some deterioration will occur, as your picture shows.
Pete
Dang Carl, you own 2 of THEM..I am Jealous ! But I am still not seeing what I would consider "die wear" That to me would be a lack of sharpness, detail, spreading out of features, etc. Sure - from the first couple of strikes things may get ironed out a bit, like grit and fiber getting struck in, but the details on the MPLS, has always been IMHO, exceptional.
WS
Your first image is either a struck thru or damage. IMO, It is NOT die deterioration.
Could be the begining of a die crack.
Could be, tell us why you think so. Then I'll tell you why I don't think it is. What should a die crack look like?
Note there are two different marks, on through the "D" and "B" and one through the "B" and the "Periods."
The copper is raised so I'm thinking that part of the die is missing. I don't know what to call it but remember the matte proofs were struck on the press that had up 400 tons per square inch.
I'll agree. The shiny diagonal line from the "D" up through the "B" looks raised. It looks like die polish in the image.
As to what I thing you are writing about, I see a mark on the "D" then the "Dot" then the "B" and finally the "Dot." If this were a die break, I should expect to see a squiggly raised line connecting all of the above. What I see is a "pushed-up" bottom half of both "periods." That leads me to guess that what I see on the letters is also damage. If you take another photo using florescent light, it will remove the glare in the first image and we can have a better discussion.
This photo is of a 1911 rev MPL with the die crack.
Yes, technically, any coin with a die break is deteriorating.
Insider2
Here is two more photos, notice two the right of the D the surface is smooth. The from the D to the B in the photo it even goes past it, the surface is rough that is why I think the die was starting the deteriorate.
That characteristic is very common on these coins. The grooves were on the original planchet. IMO, it is an area of weakness. I'll post an image. It is not an indication that the die was deteriorating.
Here is another...
Insider2 Is your photo of a MPL? And those letters are not raised.
If it were die deterioration in the VDB area it would show up on almost all late die states. These lines through the letters would have even be considered one of the diagnostics. So far yours is the only one with this. Weren't there only one set of die pairings?
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
That is correct one reverse die was used.
Just like the die crack shows up in the O in ONE in many 1911 MPLs, the lines cutting through the D and B would appear in many 1909 VDBs.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Remember, I'm just an ignorant old fart- what is an "MPL?"
Sorry Insider2 Matte Proof Lincoln
Thanks, the image I posted is a Bu 1909 VDB 1c. This is common on these coins.
Hi FunwithMPL,
Interesting stuff. Your image is the only one I can recall showing that exact feature. I have only seen 2 VDB proofs in "person" but have seen many different ones in images but none showing what yours has. Have you seen any other examples of this die deterioration on a VDB proof?
Thanks for posting your find.
This is the only one to date.
As I wrote above + image. IMO, this characteristic was NOT caused by die deterioration. IMO, it was struck on an inferior Proof planchet. Remember, before I knew what an MLP was, the image looked like a normally seen characteristic on Lincolns of that first issue w/VDB.
Insider2 The problem with that is that the planchets were hand picked and were struck one coin at a time. I have a coin club meeting Monday night. Chris Pilliod is the speaker so I'm going to show him the 1909 VDB MPL and I'm even going to take my microscope so he use it to check it out with it.
LOL, I'll bet that is another myth that needs to be exploded. I'll tell you one thing for 100% certainty. I think if you ask anyone at the Mint to explain how Proofs are made, They'll be sure to tell you how carefully things are done using "HAND-PICKED" planchets. I've got images of dozens and dozens of all the planchet flaws on proofs I've run across over the years. I don't want you to believe this...I should prefer that you see for yourself.
Chris is a good man. You are lucky to have him in the club!
Why do you suppose there aren't any others? If this were a defect on the die there would be, unless yours was the last one struck.
Please let us know what Mr. Pilliod says about it.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Spoke with Mr. Pilliod last night and after he looked at the 1909 VDB MPL. He believes 75-25 is it a planchet flaw. But the only problem is that he has never seen a planchet flaw on any other MPL cent. So we still dont know for sure what it is.
About his talk, " An Interesting Dilemma at the Mint in 1795,” If you have a chance to hear this talk don't pass it up it is a very good one.
Carl
I revise my earlier diagnosis of deterioration. I agree it has to be planchet related somehow. The area affected is incuse on the die. The defect is clearly traceable from the left to right.
Pete