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Thoughts on Counterfeiting in China.

RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 23, 2018 1:42PM in U.S. Coin Forum

These two little files might be of interest in understanding the Chinese concept or rationalization of counterfeiting. They are not comprehensive but will provide ideas for thought and possible future action.

Comments

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I ran into this before I retired from the auto industry. Back in the 2000's the Chinese wanted a "leapfrog" in technology because they were so far behind. They would do most anything to get it.

    I have a simple solution, but it is not very practical. Pay the counterfeiters in counterfeit money. If they have half a brain, they will get it.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have had three occurrences on eBay where the apparently Chinese seller actually refunded the purchase price and said to keep the "coin" when called out; these all were the latest deceptive struck fakes, two were in TPG holders.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They counterfeit anything and everything. I had many trips to China back when I worked in electronics manufacturing. I pretty much saw it all. From food all the way up to fake BMW automobiles and absolutely EVERYTHING in between. lol

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭

    What good is our Hobby Protection Act if the Federal Trade Commission only goes after the major players and what ever falls through the cracks is left up to suspecting/unsuspecting buyers?

    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess this thread is as good of place as any to ask this question.
    While at a local medium sized show recently, I had a conversation with a well known Ancients Dealer and longtime FUN show Member. I will not use his name, as I did not ask his permission to do so. The conversation went from " how do you detect counterfeit ancients" to him sharing a story about counterfeit 93-S Morgans. He shared that a Woman affiliated with the ANA was able to trace to the source, a very close remake of the 93-S Morgan. In a room with a used United States coin press, were shelving and walls full of dies of United States coinage. The Proprietor agreed to make 4 examples for her that she then carried back to the ANA and shared with some leading Morgan specialists. With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgans were perfect in every detail. This Dealer told me that if the Proprietor of this shop knew what that PUP was, they would be undetectable to the TPG's.
    My original question is, has anyone heard of this story? Someone with ANA ties should have heard this if the story is correct. Could the Chinese be that close to fooling the experts?

    To the OP, I did read the attachments. Strange culture if this is the reason they don't see a problem with counterfeiting.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Certainly not an ANA Morgan specialist but I would suspect this story to be true maybe 15 years ago. Today, it would be assumed that the counterfeiters have become far more advanced.

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,377 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    I guess this thread is as good of place as any to ask this question.
    While at a local medium sized show recently, I had a conversation with a well known Ancients Dealer and longtime FUN show Member. I will not use his name, as I did not ask his permission to do so. The conversation went from " how do you detect counterfeit ancients" to him sharing a story about counterfeit 93-S Morgans. He shared that a Woman affiliated with the ANA was able to trace to the source, a very close remake of the 93-S Morgan. In a room with a used United States coin press, were shelving and walls full of dies of United States coinage. The Proprietor agreed to make 4 examples for her that she then carried back to the ANA and shared with some leading Morgan specialists. With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgans were perfect in every detail. This Dealer told me that if the Proprietor of this shop knew what that PUP was, they would be undetectable to the TPG's.
    My original question is, has anyone heard of this story? Someone with ANA ties should have heard this if the story is correct. Could the Chinese be that close to fooling the experts?

    To the OP, I did read the attachments. Strange culture if this is the reason they don't see a problem with counterfeiting.

    I can say with certainty that they have made "coins" that have fooled the experts- collectors, dealers and TPG's. I have several currently in TPG holders in my collection, including a Colonial, several early half and large cents and a Liberty seated half dollar.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    I guess this thread is as good of place as any to ask this question.
    While at a local medium sized show recently, I had a conversation with a well known Ancients Dealer and longtime FUN show Member. I will not use his name, as I did not ask his permission to do so. The conversation went from " how do you detect counterfeit ancients" to him sharing a story about counterfeit 93-S Morgans. He shared that a Woman affiliated with the ANA was able to trace to the source, a very close remake of the 93-S Morgan. In a room with a used United States coin press, were shelving and walls full of dies of United States coinage. The Proprietor agreed to make 4 examples for her that she then carried back to the ANA and shared with some leading Morgan specialists. With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgans were perfect in every detail. This Dealer told me that if the Proprietor of this shop knew what that PUP was, they would be undetectable to the TPG's.
    My original question is, has anyone heard of this story? Someone with ANA ties should have heard this if the story is correct. Could the Chinese be that close to fooling the experts?

    To the OP, I did read the attachments. Strange culture if this is the reason they don't see a problem with counterfeiting.

    I've met the person who went to the "mint", I've looked in on a class where dies and C/F's were on display and I can say this...JD and I both picked out the counterfeit in the final test with our naked eyes. In truth, I surprised myself as I examine coins with a stereo microscope. The Morgan dollar was deceptive. What got me on this rant is this: With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgan's were perfect in every detail. To some folks, this is nonsense!
    Additionally, I've learned not to believe everything I read.

    This is what you all need to realize when you read something like the above quote. The counterfeits come in various stages of quality. The best examples of each passing year may occasionally fool the TPGS authenticators for awhile. Most of the stuff coming from China is not even close to the quality that may pass as genuine at a TPGS!

    IMHO, the main reason ANY FAKE passes as genuine is the rush to get coins out. In the old days, we had the luxury of taking our time. If we looked at a coin under A MICROSCOPE and got a rumbling in our "gut" we held it until we could get consultant info and then actual comparison coins. That's not practical today. Nevertheless, I've told one of the finalizers at a TPGS they better get someone in there to look at coins using a scope on a regular basis. The key to authentication is knowing what the genuine looks like. After seeing tens of thousands of coins, you may not know if something is genuine or not but you will know it looks DIFFERENT from the others you've seen.

    Collectors, dealers, and professional coin authenticators ALSO come in various stages of expertise. When I started out, the person considered to be one of the foremost counterfeit authorities in the country, was a complete, cracked-eye, moron who couldn't authentic himself out of a paper bag. It was so bad he went around the country grabbing up genuine coins that he thought were fakes to use in his teaching set! I hope you understand what I'm writing. Something that 95% of the country thinks is a very deceptive counterfeit is a piece of crude crap to someone actually qualified to render an informed opinion.

    Now, the problem is all of us are in the same boat. Something that may fool the average informed and experience dealer may not fool a TPGS authenticator. Something that may fool a TPGS, fools all of us for a short time. The answer is the education you get when you seek it out in places like this forum and outside seminars. I learn/see something I've never seen or heard before many times every week. We never stop learning.

  • TurboSnailTurboSnail Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:
    They counterfeit anything and everything. I had many trips to China back when I worked in electronics manufacturing. I pretty much saw it all. From food all the way up to fake BMW automobiles and absolutely EVERYTHING in between. lol

    Speaking of food.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurboSnail said:

    @blitzdude said:
    They counterfeit anything and everything. I had many trips to China back when I worked in electronics manufacturing. I pretty much saw it all. From food all the way up to fake BMW automobiles and absolutely EVERYTHING in between. lol

    Speaking of food.

    Yep no doubt, fake chicken eggs, fake egg rolls , fake meat etc. We saw it all.

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    I guess this thread is as good of place as any to ask this question.
    While at a local medium sized show recently, I had a conversation with a well known Ancients Dealer and longtime FUN show Member. I will not use his name, as I did not ask his permission to do so. The conversation went from " how do you detect counterfeit ancients" to him sharing a story about counterfeit 93-S Morgans. He shared that a Woman affiliated with the ANA was able to trace to the source, a very close remake of the 93-S Morgan. In a room with a used United States coin press, were shelving and walls full of dies of United States coinage. The Proprietor agreed to make 4 examples for her that she then carried back to the ANA and shared with some leading Morgan specialists. With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgans were perfect in every detail. This Dealer told me that if the Proprietor of this shop knew what that PUP was, they would be undetectable to the TPG's.
    My original question is, has anyone heard of this story? Someone with ANA ties should have heard this if the story is correct. Could the Chinese be that close to fooling the experts?

    To the OP, I did read the attachments. Strange culture if this is the reason they don't see a problem with counterfeiting.

    I've met the person who went to the "mint", I've looked in on a class where dies and C/F's were on display and I can say this...JD and I both picked out the counterfeit in the final test with our naked eyes. In truth, I surprised myself as I examine coins with a stereo microscope. The Morgan dollar was deceptive. What got me on this rant is this: With the exception of a single PUP, the Morgan's were perfect in every detail. To some folks, this is nonsense!
    Additionally, I've learned not to believe everything I read.

    This is what you all need to realize when you read something like the above quote. The counterfeits come in various stages of quality. The best examples of each passing year may occasionally fool the TPGS authenticators for awhile. Most of the stuff coming from China is not even close to the quality that may pass as genuine at a TPGS!

    IMHO, the main reason ANY FAKE passes as genuine is the rush to get coins out. In the old days, we had the luxury of taking our time. If we looked at a coin under A MICROSCOPE and got a rumbling in our "gut" we held it until we could get consultant info and then actual comparison coins. That's not practical today. Nevertheless, I've told one of the finalizers at a TPGS they better get someone in there to look at coins using a scope on a regular basis. The key to authentication is knowing what the genuine looks like. After seeing tens of thousands of coins, you may not know if something is genuine or not but you will know it looks DIFFERENT from the others you've seen.

    Collectors, dealers, and professional coin authenticators ALSO come in various stages of expertise. When I started out, the person considered to be one of the foremost counterfeit authorities in the country, was a complete, cracked-eye, moron who couldn't authentic himself out of a paper bag. It was so bad he went around the country grabbing up genuine coins that he thought were fakes to use in his teaching set! I hope you understand what I'm writing. Something that 95% of the country thinks is a very deceptive counterfeit is a piece of crude crap to someone actually qualified to render an informed opinion.

    Now, the problem is all of us are in the same boat. Something that may fool the average informed and experience dealer may not fool a TPGS authenticator. Something that may fool a TPGS, fools all of us for a short time. The answer is the education you get when you seek it out in places like this forum and outside seminars. I learn/see something I've never seen or heard before many times every week. We never stop learning.

    Did you see these 93-s examples this Dealer spoke of? My question was, can anyone verify this story? I have no reason to believe he was blowing smoke.

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Makes me sick to my stomach when I read articles and threads like this.

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2018 6:29PM

    Was this thread prompted by the President's actions to penalize China as announced this week? If I recall correctly these were some of the things that he felt the prior administration had ignored in the past.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty asked: "Did you see these 93-s examples this Dealer spoke of? My question was, can anyone verify this story? I have no reason to believe he was blowing smoke."

    I'm sure he was giving you an honest opinion from what he knows. Remember, we all have different levels of expertize. I know guys who can tell the mint a coin came from just by looking at its edge, strike, and luster. I cannot but I am practicing. :)

    No, I have not seen a struck counterfeit 93-S that I was unable to detect solely by the shape of the date with just my naked eye. If you want to see some really deceptive Morgan's that put the Chinese coins to shame, go to VAM World and look at some of the circulated counterfeits. Start with the "Micro O" coins and then look at the others that are being found.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @hchcoin said:
    Makes me sick to my stomach when I read articles and threads like this.

    Yeah, those eggs made me sick also.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB .....here are my thoughts on Counterfeiting in China, they are a bunch of pri#×s that could care less about numismatics in America or the USA as a whole....my thoughts.

    Jim

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Counterfeiting has been around forever.... the motive is profit. As long as there is profit to be made, the practice will continue. Clearly, you cannot take profit away.... as long as deception is possible, and the work costs less than the reward, we will live with this problem. No law will prevent it... laws merely define the issue and stipulate a penalty. Laws do not prevent crime, they define it. Profit is the motive and reward for a job well done. As collectors, we can only become trained and expert in our field, thereby denying profit from OUR funds to the counterfeiters. There will, however, always be the neophytes to fleece. Cheers, RickO

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko

    Very well said.

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