1964-D Peace Dollar Questions
BuffaloIronTail
Posts: 7,482 ✭✭✭✭✭
Were there leftover, undestroyed Peace Dollar dies extant in 1964 for the Mint to copy, or did the Mint have to recreate the whole obverse and reverse from scratch?
Were any pictures taken of REAL 1964-D Peace Dollars before they were destroyed?
My interest in this coin is being piqued by all the recent threads mentioning it.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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Comments
Look in the book A Guide Book to Peace Dollars for details.
I wish I had a dollar for every 1964-D Peace Dollar thread.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
As I posted somewhere before, in the 1970's a Maryland coin dealer wished to have a 1964 Peace dollar authenticated by ANACS in Washington. He was told that ANACS would not do it. The Director of ANACS, Charles Hoskins (deceased) met him away from the office. I was not there.
Nevertheless, I believe the coins exist. 
Yes, get the book mentioned above if you are at all interested in Peace dollars. New dies.
bob
This.
300 hunred thousand were struck. Some have had to have been spent.
I would rather have a dollar for every question that Roger spams his book.
I own the book, I enjoy the book, I recommend the book. But if every forum question resulted in telling someone to go buy and read some book for the answer, we wouldn't have a need for the forums.
I don't consider that spam.
Someone asked a question that is fully covered in his book.
Anyone can reply to the question, if they've read the book; no problem there.
There is nothing wrong with an author referring someone to a fully researched
and detailed book about the subject they've asked about.
It's very possible that the OP would actually BE interested in the book,
but wasn't aware that the subject he asked about was in the author's
book.
I've mentioned the Whitman book I co-authored a few times, and I have
no guilt or shame in doing so.
For example, anyone can ask about a die variety, but to have the actual
author suggest they get a copy of the CPG (for example) would be a helpful
post, if the OP isn't aware of the book.
Again, not spam because it's helpful, and relevant to the subject discussed.
What Fred said.
What CaptHenway said.
RE: "I would rather have a dollar for every question that Roger spams his book," by 'ACop.'
The criticism is understood. It's disappointing that some consider them "spam." If there were other reliable sources of modern, objectively researched information on the subject in question, I would mention them also. (David Lange's work comes to mind immediately.) I wish there were books I could have drawn on for Peace dollars, mint operations, the whole coin Renaissance period, 1936-42 proofs, Assay commission, and so forth. Here weren't. That means the research I've done is often the only modern, fully documented material available to collectors. Maybe that will change. Maybe 'ACop' will dive into the field and fill gaps, make new discoveries or otherwise enlighten us all.
A further point is that a book can contain much more than the minute summaries any of us post on a message board. An author puts the detail, analysis and though into those pages, and that is the place were the best answered can be found.
Last, as mentioned above, none of us know who does or does not have access to a book or other reference. Mentioning a place to find answers is a basic courtesy, and can be accepted or rejected at will.
Just to add, I get nothing for any of the books sold, read or mentioned, and they are all free for the borrowing from the ANA library or your local community library.
......what Roger said.......
That thought can be applied to nearly every post on the forum. Even asking for help on a grade can be directed to a grading standards book. Had Roger answered the question and then added "find out more in the book..." would seem a bit more genuine. Now I know he offers ton of free research and facts not in the books. But that just all the more makes the post here simply pushing the book unnecessary or better yet, non-conducive to the spirit of a forum.
The forum generally give passes on book promotions, among other thing.
Dentuck even promos whitman books.
It is the way things work around here.
Respectfully, in my opinion, it is NOT 'Simply pushing the book unnecessary',
and it is not non-conducive to the spirit of this forum.
It's' pushing more information' out to folks who might find it helpful,
and it is 100% very conducive to CU.....again, in my opinion.
It's possible that this poster is an intelligent, experienced and thoughtful collector, but I tend to lend gravitas more towards posters who have contributed greatly to this forum, and demonstrably to the hobby in general. Possibly the line was meant as a humorous one-off; if so, it fell flat for me.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
The OP had two Questions Were there leftover, destroyed Peace Dollar dies extant in 1964 for the Mint to copy, or did the Mint have to recreate the whole obverse and reverse from scratch? Were any pictures taken of REAL 1964-D Peace Dollar before they were destroyed? so he why would he have to purchase and read book to have two questions answered ?
As the OP in this thread, I fully understand the reluctance to provide ANYTHING that I can find in a book.
That's all fine and dandy. Didn't know about the Peace Dollar book. Wish I did. I would have bought it.
Throwing my questions out to the Forum was an innocent way to obtain some information that I presumed was not a secret, or "privy" to only a few.
I have done the best I could with the so called "limited" information I have obtained and graciously tried to educate others in what I have learned in 50 plus years of being a coin collector.
I don't have any books, accolades, or stars after my name. Actually I have NO credentials to speak of, other than what I have learned over the years.
I bought a LOT of books over the years. I've poured through them. I've learned from them.
This thread could have provided some hitherto grist for thought among my fellow roomies. I REALLY apologize if I have asked more than the "elitists" wanted to provide.
After all these years, now I finally know my place in here.
I think It's time to go "POOF" again.
Pete
Nah
That's not it
The side argument over the book reference is one about is spam versus isn't spam.
The side argument is distracting from answering your question directly.
In short, there were some leftover reverse dies that were rusted and unusable for copying purposes.
To the best of my knowledge, there are no pictures of genuine 1964-D Peace dollars known OUTSIDE of the U.S. Treasury Dept. and/or its branch the U.S. Mint. To the best of my knowledge they have never admitted having any pictures.
In my heart of hearts I cannot believe that they did not take pictures of the two pieces that were in the Mint's reference collection before they destroyed the COINS. That said, I have no knowledge that they did, or if they did, that they did not destroy any and all photographs as well. They had a vested interest in pretending that the coins never happened.
I consider the likelihood that one or more pieces exist in private hands to be greater than 50% but well under 100%. Call it 75%, but that is just a hunch.
I highly recommend that you buy the book.
TD
I highly recommend the book also. Even if you own only a single Peace dollar it will greatly increase your appreciation of the series. It can be ordered on the Whitman Books website.
A dealer I know who is one of the straightest shooters in the biz was told first hand by a Denver Mint employee the coins exist. There is an awful lot of stuff in private collections that is completely undocumented. Sneaking coins out of the Mint is nothing new.
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it a lot. I'll look for the book.
Pete
Pete / @BuffaloIronTail
The answer to your first question is on Wikipedia.
Question:
Answer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dollar
Pete / @BuffaloIronTail
The answer to your second question is on these forums from @19Lyds
Question:
Answer:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11352615
A few comments about pictures of the original 1964 Peace Dollar:
The previously mentioned book does not have genuine pictures of one (and neither does any other book, at present).
Somebody once swore to me that they had seen a genuine 1964 Peace Dollar and that a genuine picture of one had been published in "The Comprehensive U.S. Silver Dollar Encyclopedia" (1992 edition by John W. Highfill) on page 709. They went on to say that they knew the coin they had seen in person and the picture in the book were both genuine because they had a straight leg to the "R" of TRUST (unlike the 1921-1935 version which had a slightly curved leg). So I bought the book and there is a picture of a "1964" Peace Dollar obverse on page 709. The image caption credits it to Bob Wilhite / Numismatic News. But it isn't a picture of an actual 1964 Peace Dollar. It is an edited photo. This is typical of the myriad of stories about the existence of 1964 Peace Dollars. The stories just don't stand up to scrutiny.
It has been widely reported that in 2015 a group of prominent numismatists were looking at items in the Philadelphia Mint archives when they came across galvanos and tooling (master hubs and/or master dies) for a "1964" Morgan Dollar. Images of those have been widely published. At the time, it was also reported in Coin World that this group of numismatists also discovered tooling (master hubs and/or master dies) for the 1964 Peace Dollar. No pictures of the 1964 Peace Dollar tooling have been published. But a photograph of a 1964 Peace Dollar master hub would look just like the original coin. The same Coin World article also states that the US Mint is photographing all these historic assets so that pictures can be published on their web site.
https://coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/09/1964-morgan-peace-dollar-tooling-at-philadelphia-mint.all.html
"The items are “heritage assets” that the U.S. Mint is in the process of cataloging and photographing for eventual posting on its website. The archiving also includes similar assets at the Denver, San Francisco and West Point Mints, as well as at Fort Knox and U.S. Mint headquarters."
So we may all get to eventually see exactly what the 1964-D Peace Dollars would have looked like, via a photo of a master hub.
I'll have to borrow gravitas from someone else.
A couple of photos of 1964 Peace dollar working dies have turned up and are in the Peace dollar book. However, the originals look like amateur snapshots and image quality is poor. The printed versions were geometrically corrected and mirror-reversed to show what the coin might have looked like. The book also has a photo of the 1921 obverse cast, and that is at the Philadelphia Mint. Mr. Carr apparently has a cast of the original reverse, although I'm not sure that has been independently examined.
The wiki quote from member 'Zoins' was taken from the Peace dollar book and is accurate, but incomplete. The 1934 dies were also described as "under sized" by Roberts and unsuitable for use. He mentioned making new masters but did not specifically say he was going to remodel the design. Given Robert's prior working approach, especially with the Franklin half dollar, I suspect he made completely new models using the 1934 version (by Sinnock) as a guide. This would have resulted in coins that could be struck on the rebuilt Bliss war-surplus dual-configured presses in common use at the time. (A photo of a Bliss press is in the Peace dollar book.)
The Peace Dollar book - 'A Guide Book to Peace Dollars', is an excellent resource and the chapter on 'The Lost 1964D Peace Dollars' (72 pages) is extensive and informative. I acquired it immediately when it was available. I highly recommend it, and do not consider references to publications here on the forum as spam. We are coin collectors and reference material is important to us all. We should be thankful to those who dedicate the time, effort and resources to research and publish these books. Cheers, RickO
Many questions do not have simple answers. A book will usually give the inquirer a much better response and fuller understanding, than something that can be posted on a message board.
And, for the record, Wikipedia is NOT a reputable reference source.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I thank everyone who replied to this post. I personally don't begrudge anyone for mentioning a book I need to own. The suggestion to buy the book is, in itself, helpful advice.
I sincerely apologize to anyone who may have thought I made reference to them in some of my "regrettable" statements.
I just get frustrated at times.
Pete
Everything should be checked, including articles and statements by reputable references.
Some examples:
So all information should be checked, no matter the source. I also wouldn't pre-judge information based on the above.
Here is a thread that relates to every thing said here ! read it all down cast iron ? https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/973402/original-1921-peace-dollar-reverse-bronze-cast-with-broken-sword-design/p1
All documents located state that Fraser had casts made in NYC in iron for use by the Philadelphia Mint. Others, made at the same time or later, might exist. Any would require authentication; however, the item Mr. Carr acquired has a level of detail not expected in a false piece. It would be expected to match the one in the Philadelphia Mint "asset" collection.
The one in the Philadelphia Mint archives (1921 Peace Dollar obverse) is bronze, as per Bill Fivaz who has seen it in person.
It makes sense, then, that the reverse casting would have been bronze as well.
There are two US Mint documents which indicate that the original castings for the 1921 Peace Dollar were bronze.
In a 21 December 1921 letter from Philadelphia Mint superintendent Styer to US Mint Director Baker, Styer wrote:
"_I beg to advise you that we received at 2:30 P.M. today the plaster casts of both sides, and bronze castings of the obverse side of the models for the "Peace Dollar". The messenger who delivered these models stated to Mr. Morgan that Mr. Fraser said that the casting was poor, and suggested that we get an electrotype from obverse as well as the reverse side and if better than the one made in New York, to use it. Mr. Morgan is of the opinion that Mr. Fraser meant the casting was a little rough but he thinks it is not so much so as to give us trouble in reduction.
.
The bronze casting of the reverse was a failure and we must now get our electrotype from the reverse plaster cast here. It would be impossible to get electrotypes of both sides and make our reductions in time to produce coins this year. Mr. Morgan is quite satisfied that he will be able to get a satisfactory reduction from the casting made in New York.
.
Unless something unforeseen happens, and by using the New York casting, we ought to have dies for coinage by December 29th.
Respectfully, Freas Styer, Superinendent_"
In a 26 December 1921 letter from Fraser to Mint Director Baker, Fraser writes:
"... an added expense of $30 for two bronze casts of the models of the Peace Dollar".
I have not seen ANY document referencing iron casts in connection to the Peace Dollar models, or for any US coin of that same era.
That said, if there is any related document which states "iron castings", I want to see it.
@dcarr
Thank you Mr. Carr for kindly sharing your expertise as well as some known & unknown details on this subject.
Greatly appreciate it. GBU
You are welcome.
I should add that the two US Mint documents that I quoted in my prior post are cited in RogerB's book.
I could not find any mention of "iron casts" in that same book.
@BuffaloIronTail
Hi Pete;
Please don't go "POOF"; I have an extra copy and be glad to send it to you! We are here to help each other aren't we?
PM me with your address OK?
Thanks to Mr. Carr for the correction - "bronze" is the correct material. I'm not quite sure where I mentally switched to "iron." It also reminds me that trusting only memory, especially a decade after writing the book, is not a fully reliable approach - even on a casual message board.
We've all done similar things and I'm glad we finally have the iron/bronze issue cleared up.
https://coinweek.com/us-coins/the-1964-peace-dollar-that-never-was/
"However, in late May of the same year, Congressional leaders successfully moved to cancel the minting. The new directive to melt the coins proved difficult. In an effort to accelerate the process, the mint decided to ensure all coins were accounted for by using weight measurements rather than the longer process of counting all the coins. This method may also have been preferable given that the coins never reached circulation and therefore were entirely within the confines of the US Mint.
In time there have been rumors that a few precious coins escaped destruction. In fact, mint records reportedly claim that two test strikes surfaced belonging to a set of 30 test pieces that were part of an inspection batch originally sent to Washington. The two coins were retrieved, then placed in the Treasury Vault until 1970. Then, they were destroyed."
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
There is no confirmation that the two coins reportedly destroyed circa 1970 were actually 1964-D Peace Dollars from Denver. They could have been two of thirty test pieces minted in Philadelphia (very possibly without any "D" mint mark). They could have even been 1964 MORGAN dollars. After all, tooling in the form of master hubs for both the 1964 Morgan and 1964 Peace exist in Philadelphia Mint archives. It would make sense that the Philadelphia Mint would make a few test strikes prior to any test runs in Denver. I believe the 30 test pieces were made at Philadelphia, and I also believe that none of the Denver Mint 1964 dollars escaped melting.
I have heard it from a former Denver Mint employee that the two 1964 dollars purportedly hiding out in South America are actually 1964 Morgans. But that is totally unsubstantiated, of course.
Dan, a few questions. Was a press such as yours capable of mass producing dollars in its original configuration? Did it have enough power, or was it only rated up to quarters or half dollars or what?
When I got a floor tour of the Philadelphia Mine back in 2009 they had these wonderful mass production lines set up for all denominations, including the brass dollars, but my guide showed me one old school press set up against a wall that they occasionally used for half dollars for the Mint Sets. That is of course our largest "circulating" coin now, and I don't know if the more modern high-speed presses can strike anything that large.
I have read that some special presses were used to strike the 1964-dated dollars in 1965. Do you know anything about them? I wonder how long it took to set them up, and why we fortuitously happened to have presses capable of making dollars on hand.
I own the book, I enjoy the book, I recommend the book. But if every forum question resulted in telling someone to go buy and read some book for the answer, we wouldn't have a need for the forums.
I don't see the problem. Reading is to be encouraged. Say "Read this book" to many Gen Xers and Milennials and they say, "A what?" Most Boomers and the generation before them grew up with an appreciation for reading and books.
This forum is generally a good source for accurate information but that accurate information oftentimes comes from experts who have written a book or two on a given subject.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I don't consider that spam.
Someone asked a question that is fully covered in his book.
Anyone can reply to the question, if they've read the book; no problem there.
There is nothing wrong with an author referring someone to a fully researched
and detailed book about the subject they've asked about
all this considered, am I the only one who considers it silly that --- instead of just answering a simple question and directing the OP to the "book" that --- the information was hidden from him and everyone else?? that's absurd as is the reasoning to defend it.
if every question asked here was ignored because it could be found in a "book" somewhere this place would be slower than SleepyHollow. isn't the purpose of the Forum for the sharing of ideas and information??
RE: "all this considered, am I the only one who considers it silly that --- instead of just answering a simple question and directing the OP to the "book" that --- the information was hidden from him and everyone else?? that's absurd as is the reasoning to defend it."
Unfortunately, there are few simple questions or answers regarding 1964-D Peace dollars. Hence the injunction to read a lengthy chapter that correlates and explains what is known. Maybe that IS the "simple answer" Keets desires.
@ACop said: "That thought can be applied to nearly every post on the forum. Even asking for help on a grade can be directed to a grading standards book. [And IMHO, it should. Longtime members should give their opinion first and then ask for others to chime in. We live in a "spoon-fed" society these days. In my limited experience, students who seek the answer themselves with a little guidance actually learn something. As many times as the same questions are asked on the forums, it is no wonder that many knowledgeable members don't reply. It gets old really fast.] Had Roger answered the question and then added "find out more in the book..." would seem a bit more genuine. Now I know he offers ton of free research and facts not in the books. But that just all the more makes the post here simply pushing the book unnecessary or better yet, non-conducive to the spirit of a forum."
My Graebener press is 1986 vintage. The US Mint did not have any Graebener brand presses in 1965.
But to answer your question, my press is rated at 360 metric tons (about 400 US tons) maximum stamping force.
Morgan and Peace dollars typically required about 120 tons. My press definitely struck large commemorative silver dollars. It came with a bunch of large dollar feeding fingers (a couple with stray die impressions).
The famous Morgan & Orr Carson City press #1 from 1869 was used in the Denver Mint from about 1964 to 1967. That press first struck silver dollars in 1870 in Carson City. There is no indication that it was used to strike 1964-D Peace Dollars. But it had the capacity, and it was in Denver at the time.
All I know about the presses used for the 1964-D Peace Dollars is that they were Bliss (ammunition) presses located in a special annex building of the Denver Mint. This is according to statements from an employee who was at the Denver Mint at time (see the video on this page: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/the-1964-peace-dollar-that-never-was/. The employee states in the video that a few samples may have been sent to Washington for assay. But none of the coins ever reached the Mint cashier. So the story about Denver Mint employees being able to buy the coins on one particular day is false.
Great info and history. I've wondered what would happen if a legit 1964-D Peace appeared, would DC and the owners of overstrikes get a visit from the Feds?