What would You Do? What should PCGS Do?

1tommy

4 months ago I was asked by another member to check out a 1952 Large D Washington Quarter on Ebay. As soon as I saw the mintmark I knew the coin was Wrong. I contacted the seller thru ebay explaining to him that the coin was Not the Large D and he needed to send it back to PCGS.

I also notified PCGS that the coin was wrong and being sold on ebay and sent them the links thru there facebook pageand was assured they would take care of it. A week later this seller shows up on our boards selling A lot of Coins on the bst. I welcomed him here and told him I was the guy from ebay that told him his 52 d was wrong. He thanked me again for telling him and again told me he would take care of it.

Now I watched for the next few months the coin was still listed and the price was lowered to 1700 dollars. Last week I noticed the coin was no longer for sale. Now I write down all the certificate numbers of coins I watch to see where they end up. It was not in any Registry set and than last night another member tells me about a coin he saw on GC. Sure enough it is the SAME COIN.

Do I out the Seller? Even after telling him the coin was wrong he continued to try and sell it, now he sends it to GC with no reserve again trying to sell a coin he KNOWS is not right. I have already left a message at GC. Now the last Variety I told PCGS was wrong when I saw a picture in Coin Facts. They told me it was wrong and they would take care of it. All they did was remove the picture from coin facts but the coin is still in a registry set? I just do not understand this at all.

Since this is the series I collect it not only means the pops are wrong but now you have coins out there misattributed being sold to folks who just don't know. Should PCGS do more when they KNOW they were wrong? They love to use the term Mechanical error but to me this is a Human error, if they do not double check there own work and keep hiding behind that term it really does not help this hobby. Thoughts? I have the links to his ebay sale( it did not sell) but did not want to out him until I hear what other members think.

This is the link to the current GC Auction...https://greatcollections.com/Coin/564952/1952-D-Washington-Quarter-Large-D-FS-501-PCGS-MS-65

Thanks.......Tom

messydesk

The attributor at PCGS is responsible for attributing everything from Pine Tree Shillings to modern CPG varieties. Everything. The number of people who could do this all day, every day, without making mistakes is close to, if not exactly, zero. If they don't have the very best people doing this at the "jack-of-all-trades-and-yeah-master-of-them-too" level, the number of errors that get out goes up. Then you can add actual mechanical errors to the mix, too. I don't use this as an excuse for PCGS or NGC misattributions, rather an explanation of them.

As for what to do when you see something that's clearly wrong, you've done what you can. I don't see that you gain anything by outing the seller at this point. From his point of view, you may just be some unknown buyer trying to scam him.
GC may actually help resolve it if they have anyone capable of verifying your assertion, as they now have the coin in hand. PCGS may want to see the coin in hand before doing anything about it. Did PCGS pull the cert of the 52-D we're talking about? Adding an attribution where there should be none listed is going to be hard to pass off as a mechanical error.

KollectorKing

Insider2

What would I do: Crack out the coin or send it to PCGS to be corrected.

What should PCGS do? Contact GC, otherwise, NOTHING until the coin is returned.

BTW, a majority of "Mechanical Errors" ARE HUMAN ERRORS. Get over it, it happens.

PS If a coin is misattributed, it is also a human error.
PPS Keep up your good work! Informed collectors help keep errors out of slabs.

abcde12345

It's a capital D vs a lower case D? In this case the D looks large.

TennesseeDave

I would think anyone buying varieties for big premiums would be able to determine if this coin was correctly attributed. How much of a premium would a large D be worth over this regular coin?

Wabbit2313

Plain ole 1952-D in MS-65 is worth 20 bucks.

Insider2

@messydesk said: "The attributor at PCGS is responsible for attributing everything from Pine Tree Shillings to modern CPG varieties. Everything."

Are you saying that there is only one person doing attributions at PCGS?

StrikeOutXXX

I don't know if GC could legally send it in to PCGS on their own for review or regrade/attribute, but I'm sure @ianrussell would like to know they are currently selling a coin that more than likely will be returned costing him time and money. My guess is he would likely pull it and discuss the coin's options with the consignor.

robec

Small D

Large D

GC Washington

1tommy

@TennesseeDave said:
I would think anyone buying varieties for big premiums would be able to determine if this coin was correctly attributed. How much of a premium would a large D be worth over this regular coin?

Price guide is over 2100 it was listed on ebay for 1700 and now GC no reserve. You are also right most Registry players know there varieties, BUT there are a few who just BUY the Label. The one coin in a registry set I already told that person to send his coin back to heritage for his money back, he never replied and the coin is still in his set. Why? Because the pops on that coin are 5 and my guess is he would rather own a coin that is wrong to fill a slot. Now that coin pcgs totally agreed was misattributed but they will not remove why?

Back to this coin I have left a message for Ian and hopefully he will get back to me. Also when I contacted this seller on ebay I told him I was a member here and gave him a link to my registry set. He knows that I know my varieties and I know he specializes in selling varieties. He has had over 3 months to send the coin back to pcgs but has decided not to why> Money.............JMO

davewesen

It is not the small mintmark, 1tommy are you saying it is the medium mintmark?

asheland

That's a lot of money for a mintmark!

mustangmanbob

I am safe,

Large or small is meaningless to me.

U1chicago

I wonder how they decide to remove cert numbers? Remember the infamous 1909 VDB matte proof that got axed? Is it just the fact that this 52-D hasn’t sparked as much attention? If this thread becomes a multi-page thriller with multiple people reporting the coin, then I bet the cert will get removed.

cmerlo1

One of my favorite varieties. The D is far larger than on regular 1952-D's (there are 2 other sizes as well for 1952), and according to the CPG it isn't seen on any other US coins. They seem to be rare, especially in high grade. It's also not a difficult variety to discern- the D is so big and bold compared to the small and medium sizes you can't miss it.

burfle23

@cmerlo1 said:
One of my favorite varieties. The D is far larger than on regular 1952-D's (there are 2 other sizes as well for 1952), and according to the CPG it isn't seen on any other US coins. They seem to be rare, especially in high grade. It's also not a difficult variety to discern- the D is so big and bold compared to the small and medium sizes you can't miss it.

Did a comparison image to a certified Large D on the right (courtesy PCGS CoinFacts):

ms70

PCGS should buy the coin for a fair price and fix it. It would be the best thing to do for the hobby.

And speak to the person that attributed it.......

messydesk

@Insider2 said:
@messydesk said: "The attributor at PCGS is responsible for attributing everything from Pine Tree Shillings to modern CPG varieties. Everything."

Are you saying that there is only one person doing attributions at PCGS?

I'll rephrase that and say, "An attributor...." I don't know how many they have.

sparky64

A few random thoughts.
1. I completely understand your frustration and appreciate your concern.
2. You've done about all you can do, imho, except out the seller. And I don't know if that would be a good idea.
3. @messydesk paints a sobering picture about attribution responsibilities.
4. Is it possible that the original eBay seller is the one who sent it to GC?
5. I'd be willing to bet that GC will take a close look at it and pull it if they agree with your conclusion.

jwitten

I honestly cannot tell a difference in the large and small mint marks based on the pictures. If it was my coin, I would trust the holder rather than what a stranger is telling me.

Insider2

@jwitten said:
I honestly cannot tell a difference in the large and small mint marks based on the pictures. If it was my coin, I would trust the holder rather than what a stranger is telling me.

Look at the size of the hole.

burfle23

I am not even a novice on Washington quarters but I do review many images in my copper research. The posted example is affected by reflection and bright lighting and looks like a small "D" to my eyes. I have sent the images to a contact at PCGS.

1tommy

@Insider2 said:

@jwitten said:
I honestly cannot tell a difference in the large and small mint marks based on the pictures. If it was my coin, I would trust the holder rather than what a stranger is telling me.

Look at the size of the hole.

Exactly right. Most of you know I consider myself a specialist in this series. It is the ONLY series I collect and I have spent the last 7 years learning this series. I also can almost guarantee the ebay seller is the same person who submitted this coin to GC. The coin never sold for the 1700 so if it was your coin and you believed it was right why would you start the price at 1 dollar? oh well........

Now let's look at this coin from Heritage do you believe it is the DDO? I just get tired seeing these coins out there that are Wrong .. I will leave the 1952 Large D up to Ian to look at, meanwhile pcgs is responsible for THIS Coin.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/washington-quarters/1940-d-25c-doubled-die-obverse-fs-101-ms65-pcgs-fs-0125-pcgs-population-2-2-mintage-2-797-600/a/131739-27162.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

Now here is the close up of the RIGHT coin.

Wabbit2313

@mustangmanbob said:
I am safe,

Large or small is meaningless to me.

If only She would say that!

NorCalJack

Well since this coin has no history of ever being sold, I assume the seller is the original owner. Now the owner probably bought the coin for $20 and it came back as a valued $2k coin. If he sends it back to PCGS, there guarantee will only reimburse him his expenses, which is probably less than $100. If someone bought the coin for $2k and then sent it to PCGS under the guarantee then PCGS would be on the hook for $2k. Is this correct thinking on my part or not.

As far as 1Tommy is concerned I feel that he has done his best to inform GC, PCGS and seller about the issue. He has also let everyone on this board know about the error on the label. You can't ask for much more from a board member.

Kkathyl

You have done all you can.

messydesk

This is actually a pretty interesting variety. Nothing else used a D punch like this before or after for any denomination. Looking a the CPG and the picture of the correctly attributed coin above, it would seem at least 2 dies have this mint mark on it, based on mint mark position.

davewesen

according to varietyvista, there are 2 dies for FS-501
varietyvista.com/09b%20WQ%20Vol%202/RPM%20Detail%20Pages/1952DMMS0041.htm
varietyvista.com/09b%20WQ%20Vol%202/RPM%20Detail%20Pages/1952DMMS0042.htm

Bigbuck1975

I see Ian must have pulled it or the original link is wrong.

burfle23

My contact at PCGS was notifying GC of the issue and the listing is now gone...

yosclimber

In my view, it looks like a match to Variety Vista Die 2.
@1tommy, can you tell me why this is not true?

MsMorrisine

As far as the holder - this one is getting all the attention it can.

Pcgs would have to decide to put notice up on the cert page about it based off the photos. This may be a precedent they do not want to set.

hchcoin

Thanks for the info

burfle23

I expect the cert will be deactivated.

ilikemonsters

Contact @ianrussell and also ask him to contact Jamie Hernandez.

ilikemonsters

I see the issue has been resolved. Great news. Now it's time to do some cherrypicking on eBay

keyman64

I recall correcting PCGS on a few Mercury Dime Varieties when I was very active and specializing in them. It is a very frustrating process. I think PCGS should do their best to get that coin off the market so it can be corrected. Protecting their brand/holder/reputation etc should be worth that dollar amount pretty easily.

1tommy

I did receive a call from a nice young lady at GC yesterday and she explained they would remove the coin until they could verify if it is right or wrong. Thank you GC. I also noticed that pcgs has killed the certificate number for now. > @yosclimber said:

In my view, it looks like a match to Variety Vista Die 2.
@1tommy, can you tell me why this is not true?

Yosclimber I was taught by my mentor the inside of the d should look like a half of egg. If you look at die 1 and 2 the inside of the d has the same shape. On the coin in question it does not appear to have that shape. The picture from coin facts is actually My coin and I have three examples AU 50 and below and in my 6 years of searching I have not found an MS version raw yet.

Thank's to everyone for your help and if I am wrong I will post to this thread and say I was, but I am 99 percent sure that it is not the Large D.

Link to my Registry Set.

https://pcgs.com/SetRegistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

blitzdude

What should PCGS do you ask? Probably start spending more than 6 seconds grading a coin so common mistakes stopped getting slabbed.

As for this particular one, I personally don't see the big deal, a D mintmark is a D mintmark, who cares if it's big, small or medium? lol

cmerlo1

@1tommy said:
I did receive a call from a nice young lady at GC yesterday and she explained they would remove the coin until they could verify if it is right or wrong. Thank you GC. I also noticed that pcgs has killed the certificate number for now. > @yosclimber said:

In my view, it looks like a match to Variety Vista Die 2.
@1tommy, can you tell me why this is not true?

Yosclimber I was taught by my mentor the inside of the d should look like a half of egg. If you look at die 1 and 2 the inside of the d has the same shape. On the coin in question it does not appear to have that shape. The picture from coin facts is actually My coin and I have three examples AU 50 and below and in my 6 years of searching I have not found an MS version raw yet.

Thank's to everyone for your help and if I am wrong I will post to this thread and say I was, but I am 99 percent sure that it is not the Large D.

Link to my Registry Set.

https://pcgs.com/SetRegistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

As someone who has cherrypicked 6 of them, I am certain the coin is not a huge D. The coin in question may have a similar mintmark position, but lacks the distinct serifs and large opening the huge D has. The upright on the huge D is also straight, and even on circulated coins these features are visible. On the coin in question, the upright slopes and no distinct serifs are present. Remember, 3 different D's can be found on 1952 quarters.

burfle23

@1tommy said:
I did receive a call from a nice young lady at GC yesterday and she explained they would remove the coin until they could verify if it is right or wrong. Thank you GC. I also noticed that pcgs has killed the certificate number for now.

Yes, PCGS killed the on-line cert:

ricko

Very interesting thread... hope it is now resolved. I will say, from the pictures, (and we know pictures can be deceiving)... The D looks more like an RPM to me..... could be the lighting/reflection though... Cheers, RickO