To tell or not to tell??
rln_14
Posts: 686 ✭✭✭✭
I accidentally posted this on the Precious Metals forum, meant to do it here.
Please let me know if this topic has come up in the past. In many threads, I have seen where a buyer purchases a stabbed coin, knowing that it was a "variety" coin that was not attributed. Buyer than resubmits to a TPG and gets the coin attributed with the variety, now the coin is more valuable. Question: What is the acceptable protocol call here? The seller should have known it was a "variety" coin and the buyer has no obligation to tell the seller what he has? Or, should the buyer be totally honest and let the seller know what he has? From what I have read on these threads and my opinion, if the seller is a professional dealer, no obligation to tell. If the seller is not a dealer and just wants to sell a coin or two, they should be informed of what they have before the transaction occurs. Any comments are welcome and appreciated...Thanks rln.
Comments
Cherry picking is a time honored tradition in the coin world...That being said, you raise a fine distinction between dealers and perhaps naive sellers...I tend to agree with you, basically, if you know who you are dealing with. Of course, on internet auctions you will not know what level the seller is, so that would not apply. Cheers, RickO
A slabbed coin, I see no reason to inform.......a raw coin may be different.
But as Ricko stated, things are sort of "anonymous" on the internet.
JMO
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seller missed it...buy spots it, that's the name of the game isn't it ?
if ya feel the need to gloat then mention it to whoever...if not then just put it in your collection and more on.
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"Caveat emptor is a Latin term that means "let the buyer beware." Similar to the phrase "sold as is," this term means that the buyer assumes the risk that a product may fail to meet expectations or have defects."
http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/what-does-caveat-emptor-mean-.html
The same should hold true for the sellers as well - "caveat venditor?"
If the buyer wished to disclose to the seller, that is on them. I have seen this happen and the buyer withdrew the coin from being available and "adjusted" the price accordingly.
Some dealers do not take into consideration a variety when buying, but will recognize it when selling.
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I view the dealer as a rare coin expert. They looked at the coin and determined a price for it. If I know more than them and can cherrypick a variety, I do. I buy the coin for the price they're asking, as would someone who didn't recognize the variety, and the dealer makes the same profit either way. If the dealer is one of my good friends, I tell them and don't buy it. Otherwise, I'm not in the business of being a senior numismatist for the dealer selling the coin.
Seller beware. The buyer has no responsibility whatsoever to tell anything......ever.
Interesting question.
Dealer or eBay I would probably never look back. Someone selling off an inherited collection, that might be different.
Consider this: if the coin is slabbed without the attribution, that that would suggest that the owner did not know it was the more valuable variety, which means they did not pay for that variety when they bought it. So, if you give them an unexpected windfall, do they have a moral obligation to pass along some of that to the person they got it from? Would anyone expect them to do that?
I guess it all depends on the specific circumstances and how charitable (or sympathetic) you are feeling.
You have zero responsibility to tell the seller.
What I have issue with is when a sale is complete and a third party wants to get involved and notify the seller to ruin the deal. I have seen this happen more than a few times.
Let your conscience [if you have one] be your guide.
Buy what they're selling. You've got no obligation to help someone make money unless you're making money yourself.
So if a grieving widow walks into a coin shop to sell her late husbands coin collection to pay his medical bills and to pay for his burial, it's okay for the dealer to buy her coins with a low ball offer and It's her fault because she didn't study to become a rare coin expert before selling her coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is totally different in my mind if someone asks you or hires you to look at their collection and give a price. They have paid you for your knowledge in this case.
My comment earlier is based on auction format or set prices in dealer inventory/ebay...
In the coin world the game is usually played by 'Cherry Pickers' rules' (don't tell).
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That is completely different and you know it. See "gtstang's" post! Come on man.
You sell what you have, if you don't know what you have then you sell what you think you have. You are happy selling.
bob
You should instantly inform the seller of the RRRRIIIIPPPPP you achieved, tell the seller that you broke the CU "You suck" record, ask the seller if he is dumb or if he is stupid, and suggest that if he cannot be more accountable then he should find another line of work.
It's not the buyer's fault if the now dead husband was irresponsible.
I was quoting you and not some other poster. You said "The buyer has no responsibility whatsoever to tell anything....ever." Sounds like you are contradicting yourself. I was just giving an example of where an honest buyer should help the seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
A dealer (a perceived expert in numismatics) lowballing a grieving widow (probably not an expert in numismatics) who asked the expert (who lies) "what are these worth", is quite different, IMO.
I cannot imagine why any buyer would feel any debt owed to a seller if they were better informed regarding what they are buying. I also cannot imagine a portion of any one percent of sellers that would have any remorse in buying from you knowing something you don't. Doesn't compute.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Round and round
"Buy low, sell high" is a business model, not just a slogan. Not being honest with a seller who asks your opinion on value is not the same as giving a seller his asking price.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I am not in the business of making OTHER people money especially the dealers whom made theirs on us 99% of the time; so if they missed the "variety" then it's a keeper. Don't Ask Don't Tell
I believe that a dealer, approached by a non professional seller, has an obligation to be up front about the value of the coins offered.
Outside of that, cherry picking is fair game.
THAT
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Be honest, be fair, be true and understand that equality is dignified. What better treatment do you want ?
your gain not thiers. jmo
Does the Golden Rule apply to coin transactions?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Seems like you feel a bit lucky and guilty. If you made a bunch of $$$$ off the coin you cherry-picked, then spend some more money with the seller. Win, win for everyone
Your debt is paid in full with your confession . LOL
rln_14, what would you do in this case...
A coin lists for $80, you see a dealer has it for sale for $100. You also notice it is a rare variety and worth $400.
Would you pass and tell the dealer what they have, offer the dealer $350 to be fair, buy the coin for $100 and not say anything?
This is a tuff one, Most here know I do what I do. Some would not want me at there table just because I cherry pick, some want me there to tell them what they have. I look at a lot of books and coins to see many verities but I don't think it's my job to tell any one what they have.
I learned this a long time ago when I started this, some here know the story but I'll tell it again this is what happen. I went to LB show and fond 4- 1914/3 Buffalos but told the dealer if you let me buy two of the coins out of the 4- at your price I'll show you what I found he agreed then I showed him what I found.
Then he looked at the coins looked them up put them in back of him and said they are not for sale. I then told him we had a deal he said no we don't and said sorry they are not for sale, after that I never said a thing to any one again well maybe here and there but not much.
You know there are many ways to cherry a coin or any thing, like a coin in a under graded holder or a raw one that will up grade is it your job to tell them that as well. A lot to think about here its not a cut in dry thing some will get info from me some will not. But it's not my job to teach any one but they can learn like I did if they put in the time and energy like I did.
That's just me dumb Type2.
Hoard the keys.
davewesen, to answer your question, my first instinct would be to buy the coin for $100, but there would be something nagging at the back of my mind wondering if i did the "right" thing. A professional dealer should know what he or she has! What is acceptable? looks like cherry-picking is ok and the consensus here. This is why i started this discussion....thanks....rln..
If he puts it up for auction and you win it's a done deal. If you win a gold coin at auction at $50 under spot do you give the seller the extra $50? All kinds of ifs here.
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I actually think a lot of causal eBay sellers are just flipping for dollars and don't care, while the professionals on eBay would know better.
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This is really what it all boils down to. Your research and knowledge should be a benefit to you.
Don't feel bad. There should be some kind of "payoff" for your time, however ethereal it is.
Pete
When a dealer sells a coin to you for twice what it is worth, do you think they have a nagging at the back of their mind wondering if they did the 'right' thing?
point taken...thanks...rln...