Omega High Relief thread went Poof! Update:
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm still looking for an article defending the authenticity of the counterfeit "Omega" HR $20. No article yet but I have imaged the main characteristic on the obverse from one of the genuine coin's in the National Collection that the researcher used in the article to prove the "Omega's" were genuine. Note the small "spike" die scratch on the left of the "L." This tiny mark was transferred to the fake die from the genuine coin used as a model! The researcher also noted circular die polish over the eagle's head that are on the genuine. So far, it makes more sense to me that the "Omega's" were made from transfer dies rather than a genuine die PAIR stolen from the Mint but so far the story is not done.
Below is a group of images from the edge of the coin above with the main diagnostics I use to ID it. The main one is the three horizontal dashes going down at an angle from left to right between the "I" and "B." The bottom one is not very clear do to a hit. When I get to the bank, I will image the edge of an "Omega" fake.
Comments
RE: "I'm still looking for an article defending the authenticity of the counterfeit "Omega" HR $20."
Hmmm...ya lost me there?
In the original thread, ANACS condemned the "Omegas." One of the major dealers (First Coinvestors) sent a researcher (Breen) to the Smithsonian to compare an "Omega" to the coins in the National Collection in order to prove our ANACS opinion was wrong. When Breen returned with the information that the coin matched a coin in the National Collection, the company published his findings and claimed the coins were genuine. Unfortunately, Breen was not a professional authenticator.
Incidentally, because Breen demonstrated that the counterfeiters could transfer tiny, genuine U.S. Mint die polish even back then, we started looking for much more microscopic diagnostics on genuine coins. The die polish from the "T" on a 1955/55 cent is a perfect example. One day, I'll reveal a funny story about that particular diagnostic that will illustrate there are no secrets to coin authentication. Anyone can do it!
Isn't the Omega symbol the giveaway that it is counterfeit?
One of them but the color and wormy tool marks are more useful. I've seen one "Omega" fake with the mark smoothed out. The fool who did it did not realize he turned a valuable and collectable fake into "melt."
So there are Omega fakes without the Omega mark?
Absolutely. There is a number of Omega coins struck from the original mint dies that never had the mark. I'm betting most of these reside in TPG holders but that is just my opinion. Colours are off due to the use of the repurposed Centenario's but only so much can be detected during a 6 second grading attempt.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Thanks. Now I understand the comment.
As for: "There is [sic] a number of Omega coins struck from the original mint dies that never had the mark. I'm betting most of these reside in TPG holders but that is just my opinion. Colours [sic - Brit.] are off due to the use of the repurposed [sic] Centenario's [sic] but only so much can be detected during a 6 second grading attempt."
There are almost as many inaccuracies, assumptions and falsehoods in the above statement as there are words.
Well then looks like we have identified at least 1 owner....and by the way, you got a problem with Brits?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Not at all -- but in the US, the British spelling is inaccurate, as ours is there or in Canada.
"Just when I thought I was out,they pull me back in again".
Unfortunately and fortunately, CU is an open forum. Anyone can post here. From what I've seen, I consider CU to be the Major League of coin forums. For that reason, this is one of the most uninformed posts I have ever read on any subject since joining CU. While every member's intentions to educate and need to participate is understandable, nonsense like this indefensible!
The answer to the question calls for credentials. It probably should come from a person who knows the dies, collars, and combinations seen on these coins. Knowledge of the defects found on the Omega coins besides the "signature" would be helpful too. Perhaps someone who has actually held a few of these coins would have a more valid opinion. Please stop! IMO, an inaccurate and uninformed post leads to misunderstandings and repeatable falshoods. Questioning the skill, experience, and knowledge of the professionals working at a major TPGS is not helpful. They make mistakes, but I assure all of you reading this that there HAS NEVER BEEN ANY 1907 HR $20 MADE BY ANY COUNTERFEITER that has been slabbed by a major TPGS as genuine! EVER. Let's wait a decade and see if that statement is still true.
That's not what 4T's said...
This should be interesting.... and I am wagering that the information that will be forthcoming from @Insider2 will go a long way to settling the question of fakes in slabs.... Previous threads have indicated a wealth of pick ups that can confirm counterfeits or validate authentic coins. Cheers, RickO
See, that inaccurate post above has opened the door of speculation. Counterfeit and altered coins have been graded as genuine by each major grading service. I don't know an authenticator dead or alive that never made a mistake in their career. My record over 40+ years just jumped to eight due to a corroded Hawaiian cent and a corroded 1798 cent that were detected last year. Three of my errors were obvious fakes I missed due to inattention that were caught by another authenticator
before being slabbed. 
I will write again, There are no counterfeit HR coins in slabs.
Folks can post anything here. $T had some plausible info that still needs to be proved.
Let me make something perfectly clear about each of the Omega fakes. If I had been authenticating coins for just a few more months, I should have called the HR's counterfeit in less than a minute! Color was terrible. The HR's took a week or to only because I was not familiar with what the genuine should look like. Nevertheless, knowing virtually nothing as a "rookie" authenticator using a stereo microscope and florescent light, my "gut" said, "check this coin closely." Remember, after the first one came into ANACS we got another in. While searching for repeating depressions, It was only when I cranked the scope up to 40X did my "gut reaction" start to make sense.
As for the $3 Omega. I called the first I saw counterfeit in a matter of seconds. The coin had the same "wormy tool marks" as I had found on the $20. I had no ideal the $3 was an "Omega." It was not until I started recording diagnostics of this new fake that I found the "Omega" in the "R." Looking in our files, we determined that two or three of the $3 were sent out as genuine BEFORE I WORKED THERE. We sent letters to the owners. Because of this, I believe the $3 counterfeits were placed into the market several months before the HR and the $3 coins went undetected. The color of the $3 was also off. By the time I saw my first one, I had learned to look for wormy tool marks from the experience with the $20.
I can now see and understand the vested interest you have always had in the "Omega" thread from the beginning.
Pete
A copy of the CW article by Breen, that I have courtesy of Fred Weinberg, has been emailed.
My point is not that 4T's is correct. [You helped to give him a forum and credibility, by the way.] My point is that the poster on THIS thread seems to believe 4T's story and got his information there.
I understood your post completely. That's why I agreed with it the minute I read it a long time ago.
Great thread!
My YouTube Channel
I think @blitzdude's comment is tongue in cheek... He is referencing the claims made by 4T's in the old omega thread and poking at the 6 second grading comments from a more recent thread of @Insider2 to "send it home".
Maybe it's not as obvious as I think it is, I could see it as being taken seriously without that context.
Collector, occasional seller
There is too much misunderstanding going around, 4T had a way of inciting it. And it worked.
It really wasn't till he started sticking and goading Roger.......with no reply (very hard to do)........that he gave up and hasn't been back.
We all butt heads in here sometimes. It's the nature of the Forum. When it gets wild and out of place........it personally bugs the heck out of me.
Pete
A Miner's Bank $10 was sold earlier today. Reading the description I learned that this was a coin considered genuine by the grading services and experts and apparently now there is considerable doubt, and will no longer certify Miner's Bank $10s.
This coin was graded PCGS AU58 and had a CAC sticker.
This wasn't one person making a mistake. Everyone's thinking seems to have changed on this coin.
https://auctionzip.com/auction-lot/lot_8F44C07A88
Skip asked me to try to post the Breen article here. The PDF's that I scanned of it are sideways. Is there any way to rotate a PDF?
Using Adobe Reader, choose "View" then "Rotate View", then "Clockwise" or "Counterclockwise". On a Mac the keyboard shortcut is shift command + or shift command -
Lance.
Just turn your monitor 90 degrees.
Well, that didn't work.
Email the column and I'll get the IT person to try.