US Mint to punish excessive returns
BackroadJunkie
Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭✭✭
You wanted it, you got it. Published in the Federal Register today:
Federal Register / Vol. 83, No. 49 / Tuesday, March 13, 2018 / Notices
SUMMARY:
The United States Mint has modified its Numismatic Customer Return Policy to address the issue of excessive returns. Effective immediately, the United States Mint reserves the right to limit or refuse a return or to charge a fee for excessive returns. In addition, the United States Mint reserves the right to suspend accounts of customers with a pattern of excessive returns.
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Comments
Good! Too many flippers have returned coins after they found out that the market they anticipated didn't materialize. It's something akin to bullion dealers refusing returns from speculators who try to "invest" in bullion on the dealers' dime.
I don't think the big boys are going to like this.
Great... I am glad to see this.... for too long I have seen these games played and even discussed here on the forum. The Mint is not the same as the produce aisle at the supermarket.... If you want to browse and choose, go to the mint store, a coin show or a coin shop. Cheers, RickO
How many returns are excessive?
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I’ve returned items over the years, maybe 2%, but have spent millions. I wonder if they look at total volume on the account or just a certain number of items returned. However, I think they will use this more as a scare tactic than actually change how they do business.
In general, I am very much in favor of this policy. I’ve kept several duds over the years just to not take advantage of the system. I currently have about 400 of the 2017 enhanced sets taking up some space
Mine
I received a phone call a couple of years ago from a real mint employee in HQ in DC
He quoted a percentage of total $ value ordered.
I explained to him the various spotting and strike through issues.
I never ask for a paid return label.
I guess my mint purchase days are over. The other half will be thankful.
My big returns are mint sets and silver.
so we will see if this works in upcoming releases, negative weekly sales reports should decline quite a bit
Hah
I punished them starting two years ago when I stopped ordering their shoddy products
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
The big boys will love this. It will keep little guys from getting in their way. Apmex probably never returns anything. When necessary, they take their lumps and dump excess inventory. It's the wannabes who are the problem.
I've been U.S. Mint free for about 5 years now.
Could you imagine owning a 'successful' biz and tolerating being gamed as heavily as the Mint has over the years?
I am thankful for the education and opportunities they offered me over the years. And profit.
Does anyone here see another PM/Collectible dealer being as flexible as the Mint?
I have made two returns to the mint. One I should have made, the other no. I once got a Proof set with a thumb print on the dime. The other was a Proof Sacajawea Dollar that had a huge lamination on MS Sacajawea's cheek. That one I should have kept.
The true 'big boys" don't return much - they sell the stuff. It is the "flipper-class" that created the problem and it's great to see the Mint crack down on these speculators.
The wording is already up on their shipping and returns page
I just read an article in today's paper about how many retailers are altering their return policies due to the same problem with "excessive returns".
The case described was where a customer bought just $80+ worth of phone cases (at a Best Buy) in different colors so his kids could choose what colors they liked, figuring he could return the others. He was turned down at the store, which cited "excessive returns".
Apparently, Best Buy and several other big chains are using a company which uses purchase/return records & "predictive technology" to figure out who might be "gaming the system" and excessively returning items that are used, stolen, or bought elsewhere. Apparently, that accounts for 11% of the 11% of purchases that are returned (or 1.2% of total purchases). They are like a credit bureau for purchases/returns.
Looks like the future of retail...............
I returned every problem item they sent me.
When I bought 2 or 3 of something and one or two have a problem, they went back. I paid for my returns, there were no prepaid shipping labels like other large businesses offer.
I stopped ordering Mint products in January 2017.
Inflated price over spot is excessive for problem items, plus insured return costs are not free.
To their credit, I never received a problem 5oz ATB out of maybe 60.
If the Mint sold gold, silver, platinum bullion items much closer to spot, then I would expect flaws.
I'd be good with that.
I think this is different than that
This is anti-cherry picking not a guard against stolen or used items.
I'm afraid of being banned now. I wish there were a restocking fee for the cherry pickers. I'd pay to play.
I'm now going to curtail items bought and photo document returned items' problems.
I just sent back silver with the biggest single milk spot I've ever seen. It was about 0.25" x 0.25"
I've had p pucks with even larger brown spots.
I only wish the strike throughs were as large.
The Mint should be the punished for putting out excessive garbage year after year.
I haven't had many coins that were not "mint quality" over the many years I've been buying. I usually never returned coins because the coins themselves were fine. It was the outter sleeve of items that got damaged in shipping. I would just call the mint and they would send me replacement sleeves. Well, apparently they don't offer that anymore. I SHOULD have returned about 150 of the 2017 enhanced sets due to damaged packaging but i didn't... Some things get better and some things get worse.
APMEX ships their returns direct to their customers.
“ Punished if you do and punished if you don’t .” That’s their slogan .
America's? =p
It is NOT just a guard against stolen or used items. Part of it is inventory management. Item sold is an item that needs to be replaced. Shelf and storage space are limited and part of the cost equation. Sell it, replace it, and have too many returns, it messes up the inventory chain. You would be amazed how fast inventory can be replaced, reordered, resupplied, etc. I worked for Amazon as a manager and was awed by how the inventory resupply process works.
In engineering, we learned to take something to an extreme, to see where it failed.
Extreme example: A coin dealer offers a 30 day return as long as nothing significant has happened (spot price change, damage, etc.) The dealer sets up at a show, and sells out of his supply of 300 Silver Eagles on Friday. That night, he buys 300 more from another dealer, and sells out by 10 am, so he buys 300 more, sells out by 1 PM, restocks, and sells out by 4 PM. and so he buys another 300 in preparation for Sunday, since he is a good dealer and stays to the end.
Dealer is ecstatic and has a large wad of cash, and goes and buys some VERY expensive high end coins.
However, Sunday morning, he gets a tidal wave of returns. Nothing changed, just massive buyer remorse. The dealer does not have the cash to cover 1200 returns. Buyers hold the dealer to the 30 day return. Dealer is stuck, plus now the dealer has 4X the inventory of Silver Eagles. No money No Space.
Times are changing, inventory turns are critical. When Ford partnered with the Japanese on cars, one of the areas was inventory and incoming inspection. Ford had a turns ratio around 3, meaning the inventory turned over 3 times a year. When they were touring Mazda, a "garage" door opened, and parts were being unloaded from a small truck directly to the production line. Short version: No inspection, no warehouse, supplying "Just in Time". Ford was stunned. How do you assure quality? Our suppliers work with us and we have a long term relationship, so they only ship good parts. What do you do when you run out? Mazda, we do not, our suppliers know how many parts per day are needed and they would supply the line multiple times per day. Ford, How do you know how many they ship? Mazda, we know how many cars we build, so we know what parts were needed.
If you consider 300 days a year production, and resupply 4 times a day, the turns ratio is well over 1000, plus no warehouses, no parts sitting and getting damaged or obsoleted, no incoming inspectors, no fork lifts running into stuff in the warehouse, no nothing.
Ford learned they were not even on the right planet in competition with the Japanese.
Same thing going on in inventory management.
I've never returned a purchase from the mint so I am probably not on the naughty list. Is it to late to return my 1999 through 2003 clad proof sets?
I stopped buying proof sets from the mint in 2003.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
And now we see Ebay trying to coerce, persuade, and soon probably force free returns! They will do it as long as sellers don't stand up to them!
My personality has always been I'll stick with things longer than I should out of sheer cussedness. But when I'm finally done, I'm done.
The Mint and I divorced last year, after drone-like devotion dating from the 1950s.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Problem defective etc coins do not count against your record according to US Mint.
With a 7 day return policy I dont see how excessive returns are much of a problem?That leaves a very short time to try and make a profi as compared to the 30 days return policy that ended in Feb 2009 of 30 days.
Does the mint still offer a prepaid label to return defective items?
Hopefully ebay will follow suit.
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
Wonder if the mint will let them "slide" once in a while.
The Mint can do what it wants. Who is their competitor? RCM? nope. Australian Mint? Nope.
I doubt many of the collectors, including me, on this forum are at risk.
I do believe the dealers that come out here on this forum during times of possible Mint “rarities” will have to change their “picking” approach. And profit expectations from members.
eBay simply needs to do what Amazon does: offer free returns but ban people who abuse the privilege.
They've issued a press release about it:
usmint: United States Mint Updates its Numismatic Customer Return Policy
(Emphasis mine.)
And there you have it. This is definitely an anti-flipper move. Probably bad for those who often get buyer's remorse, too.
I think in all the years I've bought from the mint, I've only returned 3 things, all due to "issues of product quality".
20+ years as a customer, never once did I return a product.
Also, don't purchase more than 2 of any given product at a time,
guess I have been lucky over the years...
Not a flipper, investor, just a collector...
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
I like the policy in general but think that random 2% threshold is stupid. I’ve returned maybe 6 items and it was because they threw two spotted and scuffed up Am Lib Silver medals in a box without proper packaging and they bounced around and destroyed the packaging of themselves and 4 enhanced uncirculated sets. So that means I would have needed to purchase $13,000 of mint product to offset the damage caused by their poor packaging job.
I wonder if they are here monitoring our comments and sign in names. " I think the MINT has been doing a WONDERFUL job!"
I hope so.
Maybe they should do a better job with quality and keep the returns to a minimum. They charge enough for their products to do so.......
I agree, the Mint certainly doesn’t even come close to their golden (pre-modern) days. But, No one is holding a gun to your head to buy the stuff.
Cheers
Bob
The situation with the First Spouse Coins won't repeat itself., now. Or will it?
Last year, the BU Ford and BU Nixon were jostling for new low mintage status. Then someone orders a couple hundred of each pushing both well over the 1886 low held by the BU Eleanor Roosevelt. This took the wind out of ordering . Then there were huge returns which dropped Ford and Nixon down into record contention again.
By the time all this happened , the ordering period was over. If there was one customer or a group they scored a big one , BUT they MIGHT be shut out from any repeats. And the win doesn't seem to have been a good one.
The market for the FS Bullion wasn't worth beans then and both Ford and Nixon still are unwanted by the world, now.
most u.s. mint releases don't appreciate over both short or long period time frames, there are a few that have, like maybe 2 percent, good idea just to stay clear- your check book will thank you
I'll just chime in to say that I have absolutely enjoyed NOT buying anything from the mint.
If there is something I want (rarely) I'll buy it on the secondary market.
Life is too short to put up with their BS, unless you are a dealer and depend on them for a living.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
I have never returned due to buyer's remorse, only due to damaged or imperfect coins or packaging. Supposedly that is still allowed.
T00 many spec flipper returns,,,, Mint wised up
Agree bestday, getting 68's and 69's should not count as "defective".
I've returned items.....pretty much 100% because of issues (whether it was milk spots, other spotting on coins, etc).
They'll do what they'll do, is how I look at it, but there has been a LOT of gaming the system.
Used to have 30 days for returns...then people were gaming the PM market when it got volatile. So, the mint made it 7 days.
I love these forums for the information given, but these forums have also been one of the biggest places for discussions on HOW TO GAME the usmint system.
Grab to flip, prices go down before receipt, send them back. Costs are associated all around, but the flippers that do that don't care nor do they see anything but their own wallet.
I flip, but I have either stayed and played or sold at cost to others that wanted to play. I may have done a return once, when I got the product and didn't feel enamored by it, nor feel like flipping....can't remember what it would have been, but I am leaving it open to having done it once, just in case. Every time I can remember though, it's been a return because of quality (and not using a flip nor trying to get it graded then return it when I didn't get a 70 (which, when it was a longer return policy, I remember people here actually doing that).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
It got to the point where it made me hesitate to buy anything late in the year; afraid they may only have the returned ones in their inventory. Bravo!
So is anyone planning to punish any Massive Monopoly for excessive low quality of Design, Manufactured Quality , and excessive Mintage in a falling primary Market?
It might be time for a massive march on Headquarters to call attention to the level of discontent out here.