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Pattern coins are very difficult or impossible to resale

coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

I went to a small/midsize coin show that I always used to go to in Buena Park (southern cali)
Actually haven't been there or any for that matter for several years, but that was for health reasons.

Anyways, I was walking around and there were several super nice coins but prices were to high even if kept for 15 years....IMO.

Several dealers had some very nice pattern coins and I overheard 2 different dealers talking to the people that were looking at them for sale stating that reselling patterns are very difficult if not impossible to resell.

I never heard this before and wondered what others here think? I love Patterns personally and have been looking for years
to purchase a few examples.

Is this a true statement or perhaps the dealers had to much money involved to flip them. Or maybe not popular ones?
I looked at both dealers that had them for sale and they all seemed quite nice, a little too dark toned for me though.

Thoughts?

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    MICHAELDIXONMICHAELDIXON Posts: 6,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The pattern market is a very niche market. Being such, patterns are more difficult to sell than Morgans, etc. I buy and sell at least one a year.

    Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is April 12-13, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,615 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Patterns a special boutique and tough to sell. I stay away from them.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭

    A lack of supply will always limit the popularity of patterns, IMO.

    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MICHAELDIXON said:
    The pattern market is a very niche market. Being such, patterns are more difficult to sell than Morgans, etc. I buy and sell at least one a year.

    I collect quite a few different tokens and as long as I buy nice eye appeal, reasonably priced pieces
    its usually not all the difficult to sell. Would this be a similar size market?

    Actually this is a good question that I should have originally included but Ill ask @BillJones too since you
    also collect political tokens

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,481 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:

    @MICHAELDIXON said:
    The pattern market is a very niche market. Being such, patterns are more difficult to sell than Morgans, etc. I buy and sell at least one a year.

    I collect quite a few different tokens and as long as I buy nice eye appeal, reasonably priced pieces
    its usually not all the difficult to sell. Would this be a similar size market?

    Actually this is a good question that I should have originally included but Ill ask @BillJones too since you
    also collect political tokens

    I think that the token market has grown larger than the pattern market. A lot of patterns sell for several thousand or more, which knocks a lot of collectors out at the start. There are many interesting tokens that sell for a lot less. Therefore you have a bigger pool of collectors.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was looking at some the other day.
    Decided not to.

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    AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My wife started with tokens and when I got back into coins, she joined me.

    B)

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    JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2018 4:23PM

    The very top of the market can be wonderful. I’ve managed to stay away from it so far but follow it closely. Hopefully Boiler and Andy can add some perspective as he plays in this sandbox.

    It’s a thin market but that can actually work in your favor if timed right. So many outstanding designs

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hopefully Boiler78, MrEureka and Regulateds will chip in.

    Stef - what patterns were being offered?

    When I was doing small cents, I had about 50 patterns and sold most of them for a profit direct to collectors or via consignment. I had only a small number of "pigs" that were hard to get rid of, mostly mistakes on my part.

    If you stick with the popular patterns, they are very collectible and always in demand (Schoolgirl, Amazonian, Shield Earring, etc). I would stay away from the common ones (standard silver, for example).

    Simpson has impacted the market by driving people into other areas, including me - why bother biding when he's buying the best in multiples and you can't outbid him?

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Add Seashore to the coveted list

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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    WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no experience in patterns, so I will just make some observations.

    I think they're beautiful and rare.

    Although the market is thin, I still think there are some strong buyers out there.

    I wouldn't be afraid to purchase one.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Patterns from 2-$10,000.00 are doing quite well right now. Of course puke is not. There is a new group of major pattern collectors out there. Even the big stuff is seeing a resurgence of demand. The Pattern market is not as thin as you might think.

    We all discuss how cheap things like MS Seated coins are, GEM Patterns with 2-5 known are absolute bargains still.

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    JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @specialist said:
    Patterns from 2-$10,000.00 are doing quite well right now. Of course puke is not. There is a new group of major pattern collectors out there. Even the big stuff is seeing a resurgence of demand. The Pattern market is not as thin as you might think.

    We all discuss how cheap things like MS Seated coins are, GEM Patterns with 2-5 known are absolute bargains still.

    Good to know!

    I was hoping you would add.

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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    GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭

    It depends on what they are. I loved stocking IHC/FEC transition pieces because they were relatively inexpensive and I found them cool. Some of the other types like the seated ones that say "in God our trust" are very meh in my eyes. There are a few huge collections where if they are sold at auction could blow the market without fresh blood

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think Kagin's must have auctioned near 50 during the last week.

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    RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bid on every one and bought maybe six.

    I think the pattern market is stronger than it's been in a while.


    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 3:32AM

    @Lakesammman said:
    If you stick with the popular patterns, they are very collectible and always in demand (Schoolgirl, Amazonian, Shield Earring, etc). I would stay away from the common ones (standard silver, for example).

    I agree with this. I think lumping all patterns together can be misleading. Some patterns are in very high demand while others have low demand (or are priced too high).

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,939 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, there are certainly fewer competitive buyers for patterns than there are for Morgan Dollars. But can you imagine how much more expensive patterns would be if that were not the case? (Add a zero or two to every price!)

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 4:28AM

    I felt when I got into patterns and mint errors they would be like final frontier type numismatic items being non liquid.

    That being said I haven't had any issue selling patterns and I bet the ones I still have I could sell by just making a phone call.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    I think that the pattern market has been weak for a number of years. Of course the only time I bid on a gold dollar pattern was in one of the Newman sales, the price went to the moon, almost twice the previous high for the piece.

    I tell you guys, when cones time for you sell, hire me to place a bid IF I want the item for my collection. Every time I bid on something, the prices go ballistic.

    The only true pattern I have is an 1836 gold dollar.

    Well that's a good one Bill! It's my all-time favorite pattern (that doesn't cost over-the-moon money, anyway)!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
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    coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks everyone for your great input. I thought the market for Patterns is still alive and well but wondered why both dealers replied that way. Now I'm thinking they were just not priced right. There was another dealer that had probably the nicest rainbow toned Peace dollar in a PCGS holder MS64 but he wanted over 12X's for toning. I tried to get him to come down with no luck.

    @Lakesammman both were smaller coins, maybe cents or half cents....could have been dimes. I did not look at
    them in hand because they looked to dark for my taste.
    I have been looking at Pattern Trade dollars, twenty cents and a few different half dollars. Been watching for
    years but they do sell for quite a bit of money so I need to decide if I want to ante up or still admire from afar.

    I also wouldn't complain getting a pattern gold piece either.

    So, I will continue to watch and hopefully soon I will be able to obtain 2 of them for my collection.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RE: "A lack of supply will always limit the popularity of patterns, IMO."

    Many pattern pieces are very popular - it's just that there are too few for most of us to imagine owning a really nice one. However, there are some patterns that exist in quantities that far exceed plausible demand, or are so butt-awful ugly that few can appreciate them. The 1896 metallurgical patterns fit both; also the 1859 Longacre bits and many of the 1850/60-period minor denomination types.

    Just a thought and of no real consequence.

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    ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 3:39PM

    @MikeInFL said:
    A lack of supply will always limit the popularity of patterns, IMO.

    Standard Silver coinage, especially below semi-superb 50c, is much more than plentiful and totally uninteresting. :s
    1877 50c issues will always be easy to sell, on account of the gorgeous designs and rarity. B)
    On the other other hand, minor coinage R-8's can be a frustrating search. :'(
    And then there's .......

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
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    MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 3:59PM

    Colonel,

    I was a bit surprised my post warranted your disagreement, for I thought I was simply repeating a generally accepted numismatic truth (if a bit liberally applied to patterns). I was certainly not suggesting these types of coins aren't popular or collectible, or even available in the market, but rather expressing the headwinds blowing against patterns becoming "popular" in the more general sense.

    However, now I'm curious. If not supply limiting demand, what do you think limits the patterns from becoming even more popular (i.e., easier to buy and sell), if anything?

    Take care....Mike

    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wish Mitch (Wondercoin) posted her more often. Patterns are a specialty of his and I'd love to read his input.

    peacockcoins

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    OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do I recall correctly that Simpson unloaded a considerable of very nice patterns in the January Legend Regency Auction in Las Vegas? I did have great admiration of those coins in the auction but cannot relate to their value as achieved in the auction.

    OINK

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    specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is hard to assume a value of something that has not sold in years. Simpsons patterns all sold at the new market prices. Many were the finest or tied for the finest.

    I'll say it again, there is a new popularity on patterns pries $2-$10,000.00. Virtually all of them have less then 20 minted. They are just too cheap. I've also hear of strong activity on nice really rare six figure patterns. Just try and buy any 20C pattern..good luck..

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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,290 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If Simpson wants to sell the patterns I sold him, I'm all ears! Would love to have them back..... B)

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    Vonkraut74Vonkraut74 Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 7:26PM

    What do you guys think of this DuPont test pattern (even though it is mislabeled as AR, not AG)? Value?

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,939 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    RE: "A lack of supply will always limit the popularity of patterns, IMO."

    Many pattern pieces are very popular - it's just that there are too few for most of us to imagine owning a really nice one. However, there are some patterns that exist in quantities that far exceed plausible demand, or are so butt-awful ugly that few can appreciate them. The 1896 metallurgical patterns fit both; also the 1859 Longacre bits and many of the 1850/60-period minor denomination types.

    With over 2000 different patterns, there's always something cool to buy. It only gets difficult when you have specific pieces in mind.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    BIGAL2749BIGAL2749 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭✭

    In a discussion with Jay Perrino in the early 90's, he felt the only thing rarer than pattern coins were pattern collectors. However coins in the early 90s were in a weak market.

    I, myself have only 1 pattern coin.

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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2018 9:46PM

    @MrEureka said:

    @RogerB said:
    RE: "A lack of supply will always limit the popularity of patterns, IMO."

    Many pattern pieces are very popular - it's just that there are too few for most of us to imagine owning a really nice one. However, there are some patterns that exist in quantities that far exceed plausible demand, or are so butt-awful ugly that few can appreciate them. The 1896 metallurgical patterns fit both; also the 1859 Longacre bits and many of the 1850/60-period minor denomination types.

    With over 2000 different patterns, there's always something cool to buy. It only gets difficult when you have specific pieces in mind.

    I agree with this. Pattern pieces are all over the bay so I don't consider them rare in general. Many don't seem to sell so I think that many of these may be priced above what the market will bear. However, pieces like the Morgan half dollars are rare and in demand.

    The view of patterns you get from the bay and HA is totally different.

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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Patterns, unfortunately, have that "I can't afford them so why ask?" look about them; so they lose a whole bunch of mainstream buyers. :/

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2018 2:55PM

    The two Fraser pieces are electrotypes (he called them "electroshells") made to better illustrate the concept of his proposed quarter design. The process was used in 1911-1912 by Fraser, on instructions from Treasury Secretary MacVeagh, in creating uniface coin-like pieces for the Secretary to review. The 1915 electrotypes, however, were NOT made at Treasury or Mint request and therefore are not legitimate government sponsored patterns.

    They enjoy considerable interest among collectors, but will likely remain in the Judd appendix (or maybe the spleen or kidney).

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    keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2018 2:20PM

    shouldn't patterns function the same as most other coins?? if you buy interesting pieces that are graded right and attractive I would think you could sell them easier, just not at a small 20-30 table show. everything I see tells me the bigger coins, Half-Dollars and Dollars, will always be more popular and have a bigger potential market.

    we do really need Boiler to post some images of his favorites!! <3

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would actually like to add a pattern to my set of 2 cent pieces.
    I need a few proofs to finish my set and would also like to get a few upgrades and yada, yada, BUT
    I would eventually like to obtain an 1863 pattern 2 cent piece just to give my set that little bit of extra UMPH.

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    shouldn't patterns function the same as most other coins?? if you buy interesting pieces that are graded right and attractive I would think you could sell them easier, just not at a small 20-30 table show. everything I see tells me the bigger coins, Half-Dollars and Dollars, will always be more popular and have a bigger potential market.

    we do really need Boiler to post some images of his favorites!! <3

    Thanks for the suggestion Keets, I don't want to look like the only Boiler stalker. I have been known to be brought to tears after seeing some of his offerings.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Boiler" true to name, has a really high-pressure collection of US patterns! A powerful collection in steam whistle conditions!

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    RegulatedRegulated Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While we wait for Boiler78 to post some of his, here's my Judd-1779a (admittedly, this one would be impossible to sell to anyone but a sucker like me)...


    What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,939 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Regulated said:
    While we wait for Boiler78 to post some of his, here's my Judd-1779a (admittedly, this one would be impossible to sell to anyone but a sucker like me)...

    You might want to invest in some edge photos on that one.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I personally enjoy the history told by pattern cents between 1850 and 1864 and the various attempts to transition to a truly usable cent for commerce. I would even include 1837 Feuchtwangers in the discussion.

    Doug
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    ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    Here's my 2 cents on the issue:


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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2018 4:01PM

    I have no idea how that coin got a PR64 from our host, maybe it went bad in the holder for some strange reason?
    The spot on the obverse at 7:00 is the big deal breaker, than you have (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and i'm still counting) several other scattergun spots on the obverse.
    Reverse ain't so bad but it still has issues IMHO.
    Why I have seen this coin for sale on the "bay" for so long? 1st, it's a 2 cent piece that no one in their right mind is interested in, and 2nd, the asking price...........oh yea and....the asking price!

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Regulated said:
    While we wait for Boiler78 to post some of his, here's my Judd-1779a (admittedly, this one would be impossible to sell to anyone but a sucker like me)...

    What the heck is it Regulated?

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