Buffalo nickle madness: the most frustrating coin
Gusher65
Posts: 37 ✭
So when Buffalo nickles are being graded do they take into consideration on circulated coins that the dates took it on the chin. At some point when they are looking at a coin does cleaness and details become more important than a worn date?
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Buffalo nickels can be difficult to grade due to worn dies and weak strikes. I start with the amount of original surface remains on the coin. In this series some MS coins with full original surface luster can look lie an XF! Additionally, the color difference on worn parts is not as obvious as with other metals.
I see these boneheads list buffalo nickels as BU or uncirculated even MS that are nowhere near they’re claim. It’s a joke! Just look at the hipbone and flank on the buffalo . This is the very first place you’ll see rub. Unfortunately it’s also the last part of the Buff that fills out when struck. Thus you must be able to distinguish weakness in strike from actual rub. This can be done easily with a jewelers loupe. There’s also a spot on the Indian that’s a dead give away . It’s never really talked about and you won’t get it from the ANA grading book either. Their arrows point to the wrong area.
Happy hunting, Joe
Buffalo Nickels have been graded by "overall wear" for awhile now. The top feather on the Indian and the horn on the Buffalo, being diametrically opposed on the die, often are not properly brought up on the coins. That makes grading difficult.
As far as the dates "taking it on the chin".............the reason for that is because the date was strengthened in 1916 to remedy (only partially successful) the problem of excessive wear in that area that made earlier coins become dateless too quickly.
The remedy was to "bring up" the last two digits in the date to strengthen and extend the life in that area.
Sadly, nothing was ever done to correct the wear of the date, and the result of it is all of the 2 digit date nickels we see today.
Collecting Buffalo Nickels is fun.
Hope this helps.
Pete
Some dates, especially 1925 from all mints, are weak on the "19" even in better grades
HEY... I just noticed I misspelled nickel in the title of the post. That's how little I know about nickels. I can't even spell it. Till today. And your post have shed some light on the info end of the spectrum. You all helped me be a better coin collector. But I'm tempted to sell the whole lot of them because they make me crazy. Side note to a tangent. My Grandmother kept all her nickels face out in those old Dansco press in books. For the fun of it I worked the coins out of the spot for "three legged buffalo" and she had 2 of them. I've had her collection for almost 30 years. Never knew till a few days ago. Now I'm trying to learn.
There was a modification on the date very early on, as reported in in the Feb 1914 issue of the "Numismatist." It wasn't very successful.
I suppose it would stand to reason that the Mint would try to address the shortcomings of the Buffalo Nickel quite quickly. The Type 2 in the same year (1913) is proof of the attempt.
I personally never considered the date area to be included in the modification. So much radical change occurred with the reverse that study of the obverse became ignored by me.
You're correct, Ron. That article you posted is the first time I've seen it.
Pete
They'll grow on you and you will learn about them, and then they will make you crazy for how much money you spend on acquiring them. Or maybe thats just me.
Hey Joe, thanks for the tip. But where is the spot they don't show in the ANA book.
Post the 3-leg coins. Many of these are altered.
Pete-
It's often noted that "FIVE CENTS" was modified in 1913 but it's never pointed out that the date was. I didn't know about it either until I read it in the archives of the Numismatist. I believe there were modifications made to the date several times during the mintage of this series. The most easily seen are with the 1921 and 1926 issues-the 1921 is very distinctive as is the 1926.
Here's a pictorial I did for my book illustrating the changes made to the date from 1913 to 1938. The first one was taken from an image of one of the pattern coins. There was quite a change especially from decade to decade on many of the individual numerals.
NO.............It ISN'T!
Pete
Just as soon as I can get my color crayons sharpened up I’ll post it right here for the whole world to see. Or maybe just send you a pm so as not to cause any controversy
I have been collecting Buffalo Nickels since I was a child, and have put together, and sold, several complete sets. You're right, worn dies and weak strikes make this an especially challenging and sometimes frustrating series. (I am so old school that I still think a VF Buffalo should have a full horn!) But it is still one of the most beautiful coins ever made and truly represents America.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Buffs and Walking Liberty halves are tied for #2 & #3 of the list of hardest US coins to grade.
1? Anything that falls under the umbrella of the EAC collectors.
ok here's the first one.
heres the second.
Both of those three leggers are probably fakes, IMO.
I don't see the other attributes usually used to confirm this variety, from the photos provided.
Some time ago I posted a question as to why the 6 is so high on the 1916 issue relative to the 191 digits. Perhaps you have a theory?
I thought the 6 was a larger numeral than the 9 and not the same.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Title: nickel > nickle.
You're from my world. The Buffalo (Bison) was slowly dying off. The American Indian was being portrayed as a savage. 1967 was a bad time to start collecting anything.
Yet I persevered.
To this day I fondly remember my start. I don't regret a thing. The clouds opened and here I am today.
Coin collecting is the one thing that, as a 14 year old youth, kept me focused on something in life.
Pete
I would guess that it was entered into the master die that way.
I tend to think that way, too, but realistically, it never should have been used as a grading point in the first place as a sizeable number of coins in this series never had a full horn in the first place.
BTW-those '37-D 3 leggers have both been altered.
Well that sucks about them both being altered. I realize that throughout history unscrupulous individuals have lied and cheated little old ladies out of nickels. Literally this time. There are 2 thing I take away from this. First my Dad and Grandmother weren't immune to being fooled by someone. I thought they knew everything. Second is that this type of forum is a valuable tool in finding out things about the coins I own, even if it isn't pleasant news.
If you know what to look for it's easy to tell an altered '37-D. There's a number of key points that distinguish the real deal. PM me if you'd like to know what they are. Or I could post 'em here.
On the Three-legger, only the 'calf' is missing, not the entire leg. For starters.....
My favorite diagnostic for the 3 legger is the Buffalo is taking a leak!
Both of those three leggers are probably fakes, IMO.
I don't see the other attributes usually used to confirm this variety, from the photos provided
I immediately made the same observation.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Too bad about the 3 leggers.... but do not be discouraged.... the Buffs are great coins and you have a real start with your Grandmother's coins....The Buff is one of our classic designs and well worth collecting... sure, it will make you a tad crazy from time to time, that happens with several series. Lots of help here, so keep on keepin' on...Cheers, RickO
Look at the last numeral of the date on 1916-18 Buffs. They are all larger and more prominent.
They were purposefully strengthened in an attempt to make the date hold up better.
Pete
So Pete, this is the point I was making. They put a line in to protect five cents also. The buffalo nickel was almost designed to wear out or have a weak stamp. Is it tougher to find a 63 buffalo or a 63 Morgan in an early date.
I still find buffalo nickels in roll searches, the most frustrating find is one that has a D or S mintmark and no date. The oldest with a nice clear date I have found is a 1916. The oldest is a dateless but has the 1913 T1 mound on the reverse.
I wanna know too Joe.
Spill the beans, Joe. You're NOT leaving me out!
Pete
Look on the Internet and the commonly used diagnostics are posted or the entire world to see.
Here is a page from my book showing a few of the distinguishing characteristics on the genuine item. There's more in the text on the next page, which includes the following-
The entire bison is slightly smaller on the 3 legged
The right tip of the bison's beard is shorter than the left
These were all caused by the abrading process itself. My favorite diagnostic is the one I saw described years ago-"If the buffalo ain't pissin' the leg ain't missin'." Note, too, that the motto "E PLURIBUS UNUM" is farther away from the bison's back than it is on the normal coin. All these taken together indicate a genuine 3 legger.