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Roger Clemens ~ IF HE WAS CLEAN....

OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
edited February 27, 2018 7:32AM in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum

How much would this sweet card be if this guy had made different choices? 15-20K? 20-30K? 45-50K?

ONLY 43 PSA 10's around there.

Comments

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think most collectors presume that Clemens will eventually get into the Hall.

    If they don't wish to own his cards because he "allegedly" used steroids, well then that is the prerogative of the collector.

    Frankly, based on the Pete Rose rookie card, and that continued high value, despite the fact that Rose will never enter the Hall of Fame because of the recent allegations of him bopping an underage girl, I don't think the value of this Clemens card is affected significantly "if he was clean."

    Many collectors seem to ignore certain things. Look how popular Ty Cobb is. Sometimes notoriety even increases the value of collectibles. A photo of Billy the Kid recently found, is said to be worth millions of dollars, and all he ever did was rob and kill people.

  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭

    Agree with SteveK that I believe his cards are priced as if he’s a HOF’er. I loved watching Clemens growing up, and I love collecting his cards. I think eventually he’ll get in. He would have been a HOF’er even if he never “supposedly” took anything. His cards may see a bump if he gets in, but I think his cards are at where they should be...

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  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2018 8:44AM

    His card is will climb for certain..... the roids will get less and less significant over time ...but today instead of $4,200 for the last sale which concluded last night on ebay....is that same sale 18K if he was clean..... just talking price trajectory.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm sure steroids play a part in the price and value somewhat but there's another factor at play too. I wouldn't overlook that many 'regular folks' who meet him have described Clemens as a bit of a jerk (I have a buddy who was a huge fan, met Riger in a bar, and then burned everything he had of Clemens the very next day). Heard similar stuff about Pete Rose. In all cases, I think likability matters. Maybe if they and players like them had been a bit more gracious, they'd have more fans after their cards.

    Again, not the only factor but something to consider along with the steroid effect.

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  • DM23HOFDM23HOF Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2018 9:04AM

    I think the card is great and the player's performance on the field was obviously among the greatest. That said, I don't believe the monetary value of that card would be anywhere near the original post's floated ranges, if and when he is elected to the HOF. Perhaps it flirts with the 7500 barrier initially, then levels off closer to today's ranges. All conjecture and no crystal ball here, yet that would be my bet.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    I'm sure steroids play a part in the price and value somewhat but there's another factor at play too. I wouldn't overlook that many 'regular folks' who meet him have described Clemens as a bit of a jerk (I have a buddy who was a huge fan, met Riger in a bar, and then burned everything he had of Clemens the very next day). Heard similar stuff about Pete Rose. In all cases, I think likability matters. Maybe if they and players like them had been a bit more gracious, they'd have more fans after their cards.

    Again, not the only factor but something to consider along with the steroid effect.

    A friend of mine who is a huge autograph collector, was in high school at the time, after the Phillies played the Reds at the Phillies stadium, he somehow spotted Pete Rose sitting alone on the team bus next to a window that was rolled down. He walked up to the bus and nicely asked Rose for an autograph. Rose replied, exact quote, "F* off kid."

    in retrospect, my friend didn't mind because it makes for a fun story versus just getting an autograph. However at the time my friend was a bit surprised at the harshness of the remark.

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2018 9:17AM

    @1951WheatiesPremium Good point on likability.....ITs been noted that steroids effect behavior: volatility, impatience, irritability. These characteristics certainly turned Bonds into a royal schmuck by most accounts...Clemens too perhaps..... That choice to use had multiple drawbacks.... They sold out and got more than they perhaps bargained for.

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    @stevek ... gamblers like Pete rose was .. when they are losing can be completely self absorbed and miserable ... they often isolate and live in their own private hell that they create with their addiction. They lose loads of money quickly bc addicts don’t win ...

  • hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great card

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Odessafile said:
    @stevek ... gamblers like Pete rose was .. when they are losing can be completely self absorbed and miserable ... they often isolate and live in their own private hell that they create with their addiction. They lose loads of money quickly bc addicts don’t win ...

    You got that right!

    Also. my friend said that Pete had an 0-fer day, so that probably contributed to his remark as well.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018 5:08PM

    @Odessafile said:
    How much would this sweet card be if this guy had made different choices? 15-20K? 20-30K? 45-50K?

    ONLY 43 PSA 10's around there.

    Nowhere near that much. $5,000.00 aint bad!

    If you REALLY want to play "what if", what if Roger played his entire career with the Red Sox, and led them to a couple of W.S. wins? Then MAYBE 10-15K.

    By the way, I don't think Roger ever failed a drug test.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018 5:56PM

    Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test ..he knew they were coming as did Jose Canseco and every other violator.... the drug test thing was a ruse. Clemens was a pristine, monster pitcher that Steroids blew to hell.

  • GoDodgersFanGoDodgersFan Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭

    With such a limited pop count, my guess is 8-10k. This is a monster card and Clemens will eventually get in to the HOF. You really can't keep him and Bonds out now with the recent admission of Pudge and others.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,571 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018 6:33PM

    I'm not saying this isn't a very nice card because of course it is. But let's not forget that the cards that "go thru the roof" so to speak are usually cards of hitters not pitchers.

    For reasons already noted in the thread, and the fact that Clemens is a pitcher, as great as he was, I just don't see this card being a five figure card anytime soon.

  • DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    His rookie cards are priced quite high despite the steroid scandal, unfavorable public persona, and not remaining with one team till the end. His HOF chances do look better now that his vote totals are increasing and the election of I-Rod and some others who were under suspicion. He never failed a drug test, but then again, neither did admitted steroid users such as Canseco. I keep hearing that MLB did not have a consistent policy against steroids at the time. Wasn't it a Federal policy? I guess a narrative can be adopted that after seeing widespread use of steroids, MLB had to clamp down and make new rules to enforce. Those that took it prior to that are technically exonerated in that case. However, Manny Ramirez tested positive in the post-steroid era, so that is looked upon differently compared to when Mark McGwire took it.

    I recently bought the 1988 Topps Traded Tiffany Jim Abbott card in PSA 10 for the sake of nostalgia. He also happens to be an upstanding and well liked guy. The card has risen in value (in the long run) since its inception 30 years ago (it had its ups and downs along the way). Likability is a definite factor.

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Could it be that the book written last year that casts serious doubt on Clemens using PEDs has had some sort of an impact on his values? I'm not sure that the book swayed me, but it is a convincing look at the other side of the argument. Just a thought.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    Craig44, does the book address Andy Pettitte's testimony or that of the trainer?

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It does. In deposition, under oath, Pettitte partially recanted. He said there was a 50% chance he was wrong with his initial statement. Don't get me wrong. I am not the author or have anything to do with the book, so I have no horse in the race. The only reason I bring it up is because I read it and it tells the whole story as written by an attorney. He found there to be no evidence statistically or biologically that Clemens juiced. He even interviewed Clemens long time doctor who said there were no physiological or test results that indicated to him any PED use. I have long been in the camp that roger juiced, but this book has sort of made me question if he actually did it.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • DeutscherGeistDeutscherGeist Posts: 2,990 ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you Craig44. Pettitte was vague at best. He was just recalling a conversation he had with Clemens and it could be possible he remembered it differently. The trainer was also a questionable character. Jose Canseco's statement was compelling, but it has to be combined with some hard evidence. Clemens has an air of suspicion about him, but doesn't I-Rod have more than an air of suspicion about him, yet he was elected anyway? Should Manny Ramirez be kept out for sure or was the season suspension the only punishment and does not need to be further punished by not being considered for the HOF?

    "So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve

    BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Clemens and Bonds may eventually get the call to the Hall. But the fact that they were 1st ballot HOF'ers before they retired and did not get in on the 1st ballot, that fact will always cast a shadow over their "cleanliness claims".

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 27,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:
    Clemens and Bonds may eventually get the call to the Hall. But the fact that they were 1st ballot HOF'ers before they retired and did not get in on the 1st ballot, that fact will always cast a shadow over their "cleanliness claims".

    Clemens and Bonds will eventually, sooner or later, get into the Hall. There's really no doubt about it.

    The interesting premise is the other steroid users who aren't as good as them, but still excellent Hall of Fame candidates such as Mark McGwire, etc. Would it "loosen things up" for them to get in? We shall see.

  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭✭

    Clemens cards are not rare even in high grade.

    They are already priced like a hofer.

    I doubt they would go up much

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  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭

    @jay0791 said:
    Clemens cards are not rare even in high grade.

    They are already priced like a hofer.

    I doubt they would go up much

    Definitely a casualty of the overproduction era..

    Always looking for OPC "tape intact" baseball wax boxes, and 1984 OPC baseball PSA 10's for my set. Please PM or email me if you have any available.
  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    If the overproduction era was 33 years ago .. what is production like now?

  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭

    Good question as I don’t collect modern post 1994. Maybe someone that does can chime in. Do they make as many cards nowadays as they did between 1986-1992? I know there were more card companies then...

    Always looking for OPC "tape intact" baseball wax boxes, and 1984 OPC baseball PSA 10's for my set. Please PM or email me if you have any available.
  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭

    @Odessafile said:
    If the overproduction era was 33 years ago .. what is production like now?

    I was more responding to Jay’s comment about Clemens cards in general, not his 1985 RC.

    Always looking for OPC "tape intact" baseball wax boxes, and 1984 OPC baseball PSA 10's for my set. Please PM or email me if you have any available.
  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    The best part about Topps heritage IMO is the variations that limit production to 1-5-10 and red ink autos etcetc ... those are guaranteed scarcity

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    What if Clemens Tiffany had 10 prints .. and his Topps 50?

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    What’s it selling for then?

  • Gemyanks10Gemyanks10 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭

    @Odessafile said:
    The best part about Topps heritage IMO is the variations that limit production to 1-5-10 and red ink autos etcetc ... those are guaranteed scarcity

    I’ve thought about collecting Heritage avidly for years, and will probably jump on when they hit 1980 lol. I’m collecting that set now in graded form and it was the first set I ever put together raw going to card shows in the early 90’s with my dad. Once Heritage hits the 80’s, I think I’m in! lol

    Always looking for OPC "tape intact" baseball wax boxes, and 1984 OPC baseball PSA 10's for my set. Please PM or email me if you have any available.
  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    I’ve been a high grade vintage collector of all sports for years ... Psa 9s or better only ... and watching judge and bellinger got me energized to the new stuff ... Topps has outdone themselves ... splendid work they are doing over there ... flip stock and bright backs and gray backs .... single prints .... it’s going to rise to the top IMO ... and the best part is imitating the years so that new collectors may start an interest in a Rod Carew ‘or Nolan Ryan 68 or ‘69 ... genius ...

  • maddux69maddux69 Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It could be possible that a few are snatching up every copy they can get their hands on at any price. Compare it to Mattingly who may not have put up HOF numbers, but still widely considered to make it in by ways of the veteran's committee. The Clemens pop is 44 in PSA 10 while the tiffany Mattingly in PSA 10 has a pop of 40. Looking at VCP I can see 3 users that have bought multiple copies of the Clemens, 2 of those bought all 5 examples that sold eBay from 7/2/16 to 12/25/16. Back in early 2016 their prices were in earshot of each other, then the frenzy set in and it hasn't stopped.

  • OdessafileOdessafile Posts: 440 ✭✭✭

    And then the old collector may buy the new stuff bc it reminds them of the old stuff ... it’s the best of both worlds ... and only Topps has that history ... nobody else ... so bowman and panini and all the other toxic junk can take a back seat ...

  • addicted2ebayaddicted2ebay Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭✭

    I did not read through the thread but IMO Clemens and Bonds should be in the HOF and when they make it I’m sure their cards will double in $.

  • rtimmerrtimmer Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭✭

    I hope they more than double! A couple years ago I started this thread after deciding to put some money behind their cards etc in hopes they make it. It's been a good choice so far

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/966803/my-clemens-and-bonds-hof-collection/p1

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  • JWBlueJWBlue Posts: 487 ✭✭✭

    I just picked this up.

    It is so perfectly centered I wonder if is counterfeit. Never seen anything close to this centering.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is great centering! Doesn't look to me that the slab has been tampered with and the flip looks good as well. From what I have seen over the last year, high end cards of both bonds and Clemens may be some very good pickups as it seems the HOF will happen for both.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

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