Mariano Rivera is generally revered as the best closer in MLB history.......Who's the 2nd and 3rd?

Odessafile

Eckersley is up there and perhaps Rollie Fingers....I'm more old school....not a huge fan of Hoffman.

dallasactuary

If we're talking about "closers" in the modern sense, my answer is "who cares?" If the title is open to relief pitchers who pitched important innings whether or not they finished the game, then my answer is Hoyt Wilhelm.

Coinstartled

Denton Young.

Brick

Can you be a great closer if you started the game?

Justacommeman

@dallasactuary said:
If we're talking about "closers" in the modern sense, my answer is "who cares?" If the title is open to relief pitchers who pitched important innings whether or not they finished the game, then my answer is Hoyt Wilhelm.

I loved me some John Hiller back in the day

m

SDSportsFan

For me, for pure "Turn Out the Lights, the Party's Over" under the modern thinking, the Top-3 are Rivera, Gossage and Eckersley.

The thing is, I never really saw Hoffman play, as I was in the military his entire career, and the Padres were never on national TV. If I had been able to see him play, he quite possibly would be up there.

It just amazes me that, of the Hall of Fame relievers, three of them (Fingers, Gossage and Hoffman), all played for the Padres. I was lucky to see Fingers and Gossage many times in person and on TV, as I'm from San Diego, but I never really saw Hoffman at all.

Now, for the best relievers who weren't limited to the 9th inning, for me it's Gossage, Fingers and Eckersley. They would come in in the 7th inning if necessary, and finish the game (getting the save).

Steve

keets

I just looked at his stats and he has to be the most dominant pitcher in history with the worst W/L percentage. of course, we all know why it's like that, but imagine future fans who obsess on winning percentages and wonder how he made it into the HOF. I'm sure someone knows, but how many of his saves were in games where he held a one-run lead?? that's reflected in a crazy ERA. also, how many inherited runners scored?? I can't imagine it was very many if I look at his WHIP of.........one!!!! over a 19 year carreer, that's just stupid.

I can't begin to guess who might be second best, I'm just happy Rivera retired. the Yankees were hard enough to beat when they were average and had him at the back of the 'pen, when they were really good it was impossible.

orioles93

The most dominant reliever ever after Rivera is Billy Wagner and it’s not even close. And if you say otherwise, you one either didn’t watch him pitch, or two are to busy sticking to the old guys like gossage and not willing to change your mind.

estang

Hoyt Wilhelm pitched a mere 2 1/3 innings in the post-season in 1954 for the Giants -- I would hardly call that "important innings" and most of his teams were average to below average...

I would agree that Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersley pitched significant innings for pennant winning teams in the regular and post-season.

Chapman and Kimbrel are all-time greats and just need more chances...

dallasactuary

@Justacommeman said:
I loved me some John Hiller back in the day

m

Absolutely. HIller had a run in the 70's that was astounding, and comparable to the run Radatz had in the 60's. And both of them averaged about 2 innings per appearance. And let's not forget Mike Marshall, also in the 70's; he'd "c;lose" games after taking over in the 7th or 8th 2 or 3 times every week. Rivera was in a class by himself, but the rest of the modern closers should be assigned to washing the jocks of these three, especially the one's that {barf} got into the HOF.

Coinstartled

Mark should remember this...

On January 11th 1971, Hiller’s baseball career was put on hold. On that day, Hiller suffered a massive heart attack. Although he had been smoking since the age of 13, a good deal of other players had as well and none had ever suffered this fate.

“Incredibly painful, incredibly frightening” he said when asked about it in a recent interview. “I didn’t even know I was having a heart attack, first of all. A heart attack? I was 27-years-old.”

Hiller was an incredibly lucky man. Although there were two blockages in the valve of his heart, he was told he would suffer no permanent damage with the intestinal bypass surgery. Alive and on the road of recovery, the dream of returning some day began to creep in the back of his mind.

After sitting out the entire 1971 season, Hiller’s tests showed his cholesterol was nearly all the way down and the blockages were nearly gone. Although he would have to convince the Tiger’s he was 100 percent healthy, the dream was now a possibility.

Tabe

@orioles93 said:
The most dominant reliever ever after Rivera is Billy Wagner and it’s not even close. And if you say otherwise, you one either didn’t watch him pitch, or two are to busy sticking to the old guys like gossage and not willing to change your mind.

This is the right answer. Anybody saying Eck over Wagner is buying the myth of Eck instead of the reality. Wagner was an elite closer for 13 seasons. Eck was elite for (maybe) five.

1951WheatiesPremium

Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman did a great job of 'mopping up' but both also fails to get biggest outs - quite often. Especially Hoffman but also Wagner. As someone who always chased the best closers in baseball for my fantasy teams, I found them both to be lacking in September. For Wagner, this was more with the Mets than Astros.

Just my opinion, and they're both loaded with great numbers. But having watched them 'up close' that as my takeaway. Draft in April; trade in August became my rule.

I imagine there's some drawbacks to everyone but Mo.

Brad Lidge and Eric Gagne also had some pretty amazing but short bursts in their career.

Tabe

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman did a great job of 'mopping up' but both also fails to get biggest outs - quite often. Especially Hoffman but also Wagner. As someone who always chased the best closers in baseball for my fantasy teams, I found them both to be lacking in September. For Wagner, this was more with the Mets than Astros.

Billy Wagner:

Sept 2006: 11 games, 11 GF, 0-0, 2.45 ERA.
Sept 2007: 10 games, 8 GF, 0-0, 3.60 ERA
Sept 2008: DNP

Sept (Career): 158 games, 121 GF, 1.70 ERA - lowest month ERA in his career.

He wasn't great in 2008, to be sure. But the rest of his career is the exact opposite of your perception - he stepped up his game in September.

grote15

@Tabe said:

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Billy Wagner and Trevor Hoffman did a great job of 'mopping up' but both also fails to get biggest outs - quite often. Especially Hoffman but also Wagner. As someone who always chased the best closers in baseball for my fantasy teams, I found them both to be lacking in September. For Wagner, this was more with the Mets than Astros.

Billy Wagner:

Sept 2006: 11 games, 11 GF, 0-0, 2.45 ERA.
Sept 2007: 10 games, 8 GF, 0-0, 3.60 ERA
Sept 2008: DNP

Sept (Career): 158 games, 121 GF, 1.70 ERA - lowest month ERA in his career.

He wasn't great in 2008, to be sure. But the rest of his career is the exact opposite of your perception - he stepped up his game in September.

Another example why advanced stats are an infinitely better tool to assess player performance vs personal recollections.

craig44

Closers who pitch one inning, most of which start clean? Who cares.

dallasactuary

What the chart below shows is NOT that closers have gotten better over the years. What it shows is that the point in the game when closers have been brought into the game has been getting later and later. In the mid-70's, when the number of great pitchers who were being used as closers peaked, 2+ inning saves were routine, and accordingly, the percentage of successful saves bottomed out. Today, it makes almost no difference which pitcher is chosen as the closer; when the average closer is saving 90% of the save opportunities, there just isn't enough room to improve on that to bother wasting a great pitcher in that role. If you've got a great pitcher being used as a closer, make him a starter where he can make a difference. If he can't pitch more than 60 innings a year, find a GM who thinks 60 great innings will win more games than 200 good innings, and trade your closer for a starter. The point being, if you can get to the ninth inning with the lead, you're going to win well over 90% of the time (lots of blown saves turn out to be wins anyway) no matter who "closes".

craig44

Closer, the most overrated position in baseball.

1951WheatiesPremium

Billy Wagner had great stuff. He was a dominant closer in the sense the he had a lot of saves and a great K rate and ratios were great too. But many guys have done this. However, I trust my memory and while I am unwilling to go to game log levels to look for individual game performances I can say that I know he wasn't on a team that contended every year BUT I recall him having been shaky in the good years as they got into bigger spots. One thing I CAN provide for the stat guys is the entirety of his post season record. It's not pretty.

You can cry small sample size all you want. When it counted, he sucked. Repeatedly. And that Pujols home run might still be traveling if there wasn't a wall/roof there!

Justacommeman

Rivera was a cut above but after that they are mostly interchangeable

m

dallasactuary

@Justacommeman said:
Rivera was a cut above but after that they are mostly interchangeable

m

Rivera was a great pitcher, and he was largely wasted by the Yankees. Rivera appeared in 1,115 games, 763 of which were save situations. And he saved 89.2% of those vs. a league average of 88.9%. That's right; in 763 save opportunities, Rivera saved 2 more games than an average closer would have. Sure, more often than an average closer Rivera gave up no runs when an average closer might have given up one with a two run lead or two with a three run lead, but the result, 99.7% of the time, was the same.

"Closer" is a BS position, but the "save" sits high atop the BS mountain.

1951WheatiesPremium

@dallasactuary said:

@Justacommeman said:
Rivera was a cut above but after that they are mostly interchangeable

m

Rivera was a great pitcher, and he was largely wasted by the Yankees. Rivera appeared in 1,115 games, 763 of which were save situations. And he saved 89.2% of those vs. a league average of 88.9%. That's right; in 763 save opportunities, Rivera saved 2 more games than an average closer would have. Sure, more often than an average closer Rivera gave up no runs when an average closer might have given up one with a two run lead or two with a three run lead, but the result, 99.7% of the time, was the same.

"Closer" is a BS position, but the "save" sits high atop the BS mountain.

Except in 1996, when he was deployed as often and pitched as efficiently an effectively as any relief pitcher ever.

craig44

Instead of employing a pitcher of riveras quality in many low leverage 9th inning "save" situations, the Yankees should have used him in late and close situations. More games are lost in 6th and 7th inning rallies then in the 9th when a "closer" is brought in to get three outs with no one on base. Dallas is 100% right in this instance. The Yankees largely wasted Rivera

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Except in 1996, when he was deployed as often and pitched as efficiently an effectively as any relief pitcher ever.

Absolutely correct! That year, and that year only, the Yankees got more innings out of Rivera than any other reliever, and Rivera had career highs in innings pitched and in innings per appearance, WAR and Win Probability Added. With his 5 saves, he was much more valuable than Wetteland with his 43, but after that stellar season the Yankees followed the playbook and moved Rivera to "closer", reducing his innings and his value to the team.

1951WheatiesPremium

FWIW, Mariano Rivera began his career as a starter. Maybe he needed more time but with the time given it didn't work and they gave him a bullpen role. And as good a pitcher as he was, there wasn't a spot in the rotation for him.

Now, given all the rings, there's probably a better choice of word than 'wasted' as it pertains to Mo; he's the best closer of all time, a lock for the Hall and you can only win one World Series per season. Not sure any of the three happen for Mo as a starter...

dallasactuary

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Now, given all the rings, there's probably a better choice of word than 'wasted' as it pertains to Mo; he's the best closer of all time, a lock for the Hall and you can only win one World Series per season. Not sure any of the three happen for Mo as a starter...

Now, I didn't say "wasted" I said "largely wasted", and I think that's correct. The Yankees used Rivera in far too many situations where he got a save, but they could have let Chad Curtis pitch and gotten the same result. As for the rest, absolutely Rivera was a great pitcher and he'll make the HOF; my only point is that the Yankees would have won more games, and possibly more World Series, had they continued to use Rivera as they used him in 1996 throughout his career.

1951WheatiesPremium

Well, I don't disagree with the sentiment you put forth. I like the best reliever used in the biggest spot angle, too. However, I do wonder how long he'd have lasted deployed as he was in '96. The guys who tried after had their careers end early (Mendoza and Sturtze as Yanks come to mind).

WinPitcher

What no love for Dick Radatz?

Hydrant

Cyclone Young.

dallasactuary

@WinPitcher said:
What no love for Dick Radatz?

Radatz was absolutely awesome, and possibly the best ever, for his first three seasons, but he was done after that. As a contender for greatest season by a relief pitcher, all of Radatz' first three seasons are in the mix, but as a contender for greatest career, he just didn't last long enough.

But if you ever are asked to name the greatest season ever by a relief pitcher, you should go with John Hiller in 1973.

craig44

Dick Radatz. Great memories of him. He was the first professional baseball player i ever met in person. at a card show at the Bangor Mall almost 30 years ago. He was Gigantic. I think around 6'7" or so. I Believe he could hold 7 baseballs in one hand. I think they called him the monster?

Justacommeman

@dallasactuary said:

@WinPitcher said:
What no love for Dick Radatz?

Radatz was absolutely awesome, and possibly the best ever, for his first three seasons, but he was done after that. As a contender for greatest season by a relief pitcher, all of Radatz' first three seasons are in the mix, but as a contender for greatest career, he just didn't last long enough.

But if you ever are asked to name the greatest season ever by a relief pitcher, you should go with John Hiller in 1973.

So true. I lived it and when I think back I’ve not seen anything like it since

m

Estil

Hoyt Wilhelm seemed to truly pioneer the role of relief pitcher (he was the first one in the HOF right?) and Eck has got to be the one who put the closer truly on the map...too bad he was on the wrong side of Kirk Gibson's famous 1988 World Series homer....still he made up for it four years later when he became for the longest time the last pitcher (much less reliever!!) to win MVP and got to star in 1993 Ultra (back in the early 90s Fleer and Ultra would honor a very special player by making an insert set just for them)