Does PCGS Have Two Feet Pressing The Brakes To The Floor??
Coppercolor
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Does PCGS Have Two Feet Pressing The Brakes To The Floor on their grading of colorfully toned coins?
Having a submission go 1/17 with 16/17 getting graded Questionable Color prompted me to post this. This submission, and several others where they have clearly tightened their color standards, was an indication that they could be unemotional about QC'ing large portions of an order. Please DO NOT take this as commentary that these coins should have graded. I submitted this group of 17 for a friend after strongly advising against the submission, and against my better judgement because I felt they were AT. In the end I submitted them because I felt he would have just found someone else to do it for him. I have super mixed feelings on this, but in the end I believe the following positives and negatives could ensue if they are tightening:
Positives
1) A slight over-correction could help in the grading room when a lot of artificial material got graded. Deep down I'm glad to see it swing toward conservatism
2) They will eventually bring some order back into the toned coin market and the scrutiny back to the origins of material
3) They may discourage the submission of, and eventually the proliferation and market for questionably colored material
4) The most recent Newbs to the coin market, and toned coin market, will have to re-learn traits that show originality
5)** PCGS graded rainbow material is likely to bring even more of a premium when the smoke clears**
Negatives
1) Could scare some buyers and collectors from the market
2) IS driving some of the less experienced collectors and dealers to the NGC grade-room
3) Many gorgeous and deserving originally toned coins are getting caught in the cross-hairs and either getting downgraded a point or are getting QC'd. While this hurts, in my opinion it's the only way forward to correct what's been happening
I've continued to submit during this phase heavily. I've bitched about a number of stone cold original beauties getting QC's but they are still grading most of the fully no questions asked original coins like Double Mint Set Coins, album toned lincolns, bag toned Morgans etc.
Thoughts in support of or in opposition to my post are welcome
For the record I support the tightening of the standards on color
<< Edited 2/2 to try to help focus the discussion away from my submissions to get other people's opinions>>
Comments
I concur and especially Indian Head pennies. I have had many come back questionable color, even those I cracked out that were fine before.
1 out of 17? I might be apt to call it quits.
Updated. If those are the coins you sent in below, you got what you deserved!
and the pendulum swings
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Would that yesterday's MS-whatever were the same as today's and tomorrow's.
Consistency would be nice.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Artificially toned coins have no business being slabbed and certainly at a minimum deserve a details designation. It's a major problem in the hobby, glad to see PCGS FINALLY stepping up to address this.
Sorry you got hit on 16 out of 17 submissions but if they were artificially toned PCGS certainly did the right thing.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
It's about freakin time.
There is not one TPGS that has not made a mistake about something in the past. Thankfully, they wise up and from then on things get stabilized over time.
This is not the first time what was once considered to be NT has been discovered to be AT. The last time was in the early 1990's (? if I remember). Same thing happened with "puttied" gold and "fake frost!"
The TPGS are in a daily battle with the fakers. IMHO, they do better than we could hope to expect - which is 100%!
Unfortunately, we set impossible expectations.
Well, I did submit those 17 for a friend and I expressed my concerns about the submission. While these submissions hurt, it sure does reinforce the boundaries.
Still waiting for the pendulum to start its return swing re: FBL Franklins. They are out of their minds.
What were the coins? Morgans? ASE's? I haven't noticed any particular patterns either way....
I've submitted coins for friends that "piggybacked" on my orders.
100% of the coins that had colorful toning came back "questionable color".
Makes me wonder if PCGS has me labeled as a "questionable submitter".
Glad to see PCGS keeping the standards tight.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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You could always try the main alternative, how are they doing in this respect now, tighter and looser? One solution would be to interact with a grader or expert on at vs. natural color at a show and get their perspective.
FBL Franklins are a mess BECAUSE the standards have been changed. It once was complete, strong. separation of top and bottom sets of bands with no breaks or marks across them. Not any more and IMO, there is no way to return to the old standard! Now some TPGS's only consider the bottom set while others mostly consider both. Even the CAC web site (at one time - not going to check for any change tonight) showed a FBL coin with a deep slash across the bottom set near the side of the bell!
It is the same with no hair over the ear Morgan dollars! Now they are being graded MS-66 and higher!
This erosion of old norms (including AU's now MS) will continue as grades need to go up to justify what a coin is "worth."
Until the value of a coin is separated from it's strict technical condition - one that any novice can determine with just a little education - this insanity will continue. Stop the whining. It ain't going to ever happen in our lifetimes!
Seems to me your friend needs to be truthful and tell you how he got them coins. how did they get so toned? Your name is riding on the form , you have a point I guess thats why I dont buy colored toned coins. Its just me but I do like natural worn coins.
Completely agree with the OP assessment that PCGS is putting the brakes on grading toned coins. I'll disagree that it is a positive that they are "slightly over-correcting" their ways, because it seems much more than slight.
The biggest beef I have had with the TPGs, as many of us would agree, is consistency, or a lack thereof. There is no reason that I can understand to swing the pendulum too far in the other direction and not grade legit toned coins. (And I am talking about other submissions that I am familiar with, and not the OP coins, which i have not seen.) Who knows the reason, perhaps some inexpereince in the grading room.
I have zero issue sorting naturally toned from unnatural and purposefully toned coins. However, I'm afraid the friend who I submitted for is having to learn the hard way that he has some pencil sharpening to do. This is some brutal "tuition"
Jeff
Trying to get the horse back in the barn is going to prove difficult. The barn door has been open a LONG time!!!But I applaud their efforts.
I agree that the inconsistency hurts and is painful. But since I pretty much exclusively play in the toned coin realm, I have been hurting in the past year or two, particularly with regard to PCGS opening the door on the various and sundry muddy blue/pink/purple toned Lincolns and Indians that they rightly shunned for the two decades during which I built the Coyote Ugly toned Liincoln set.
Did I understate the degree to which PCGS has swung the other way, yes. But I was trying to be polite to our host.
I keep hearing a voice shouting “ hey, batter, batter .... swing ! ”
Will we see any pics of this submission Jeff?
And here I clicked this thread thinking you were talking about turnaround times.
Good to hear that they're reacting to what's widely seen as a problem with AT coins.
What was your conservative estimate as to how many coins should have graded?
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Complete with pics too. This is why I don't share my order.
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Interesting post Coppercolor. We share the love for toned coins. My focus is almost exclusively on toned proof copper. But I have not had your experience recently.
My submittals tend to be only 3-8 coins at one time. In the past 4-5 years I have yet to receive a QC (.91) on any IHC or Lincoln that I have submitted. However, I am 0/20+ on coins that I submitted that were RD and had no toning.
While there are many toned coins that are AT, there may be even more RD coins that should be QC (.91). Some of my RAW RD IHC proofs probably lie in this category. And many are finer examples than can be seen on CoinFacts. But none of them have the great eye appeal of the toned coins in my registry set (Paha Sapa Indians).
Like you, I hope that PCGS will no longer grade AT coins, most of which are modern Lincolns that just could not have been in a "toning environment". Some pics of your last submission would be bery useful for all of us.
OINK
A great way to increase the revenue, knowing we fools will continue to re-submit. I've lost count of the coins submitted and came back QC, knowing and having pulled them directly from the source. Frankly, I'm no longer playing the game. But, then again, perhaps I can't tell an NT from a QC coin when I'm buying raw. Could just be me...
Sniffers, I tell ya.......the super secret detectors have been unleashed!
Pete
Blatant at worst and worst and worst and ...
I LOVE that quarter, FadeToBlack-just my type of toning and color.
For us maybe......for number of submissions, profit for the TPGs...not so much.
Like a pendulum do.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I love that bicentennial quarter. It might be just a little too nice for a clad coin but it isn't all that dissimilar from mine or @koynekwest's. I would buy it as-is if the owner wants to sell.
Here's is my MS66 for comparison:
First some facts and then a question...
Before toning became the rage, I have found many different denominations of mostly "modern" coins with this characteristically beautiful rainbow toning around their periphery. All were in aftermarket paper/cardboard holders of some type and in US government sealed sets. This stuff happens. Many of you dealers have probably seen the same things. The coins were not that common but I don't live in every part of the country either. Things may be different in Georgia.
Today, coins like this are all over the place. Many can be very attractive and they bring good money. Those are the facts.
Now the question...
Suppose it would be easy for some knowledgeable folks to speed up this process. It cannot be too hard. Surround a coin with some type of thick fiber-paper like an old album. soak the surrounding holder with a "witches brew" of chemicals and apply heat. I'll bet it is just that easy to get peripheral toning and all it took (if this actually works) is to think like a crook.
For my question, let's say it does work. An experienced person can crank out a few beauties in an hour including dipping the unattractive pieces and starting over. I should think his end product would look very attractive as many of the coins posted here.
Are his pieces NT or AT?
Now, without knowing how the color came about and how long it took to make them are his pieces NT or AT?
This is what we are asking the TPGS's to do daily. Play God and figure out the history of the coin. For me, it's very simple. If it looks NT than I don't care who or how long it took to get that way. As to the sniffer, as long as "honest occurring chemicals" found in holders are used....
If the column of coin images as shared by FadeToBlack is the column of coins in question then I have two observations. First, your "friend" might very well have viewed you as a mule for bad coins and you may be the one learning the lesson. Second, this group of coins does not invoke the phrase "two feet pressing the brakes to the floor" to me, but rather it shows they are using common sense.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
First some facts and then a question...
Before toning became the rage, I have found many different denominations of mostly "modern" coins with this characteristically beautiful rainbow toning around their periphery. All were in aftermarket paper/cardboard holders of some type and in US government sealed sets. This stuff happens. Many of you dealers have probably seen the same things. The coins were not that common but I don't live in every part of the country either. Things may be different in Georgia.
Today, coins like this are all over the place. Many can be very attractive and they bring good money. Those are the facts.
Now the question...
Suppose it would be easy for some knowledgeable folks to speed up this process. It cannot be too hard. Surround a coin with some type of thick fiber-paper like an old album. soak the surrounding holder with a "witches brew" of chemicals and apply heat. I'll bet it is just that easy to get peripheral toning and all it took if this works is to think like a crook. .
Post removed.
This just QCd a few days ago. The hue is a bit off, it's pretty much blast.
@clarkbar04 I saw that you posted that Merc on IG and I don't get that one either.
Really? Your surprised those came back QC. I see maybe two that look like they could pass as NT. The rest are just blatantly QC. Nice work FTB
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Hey @FadeToBlack ...I would have liked and agreed with the pics & opinions post but it would only let me press one of ‘em...and since it’s hardest to make me laugh, that’s what you got
Hello old friend.
looks like the work has been done for me.
FadeToBlack, BrucS and Tom B, I want to be sure you've seen everything I've posted and that I'm not being misrepresented:
1) I told the owner of the coins I thought only a tiny handful would have a chance of grading, that the entire remaining group were questionable and that he was likely to get stomped in the submission
2) I agreed to enter them in a submission after he gave me his credit card to put on the forms and told me he was ok if they didn't straight grade
3) I have never revealed the coins or the owner of the coins, especially on IG. I did text a screenshot of the submission to a friend because he'd been recently stomped and it's possible he's showed it around
4) To TomB and others, I purposefully didn't post the coins in this submission because they weren't representational of the coins I was talking about in my OP, I simply mentioned them in a small comment in the OP, and they weren't intended to be the focus.
Here are some of the coins that I believe are more representational of the phenomenon I described in the OP, which have recently graded QC:
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/34402667_Large.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/34402660_Large.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/34402663_Large.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/34402659_Large.jpg
Wholeheartedly agree. This is not a NT looking submission.
This was several years ago. Bought raw. First time in these three QC:
2nd time in:
MS 65RB
MS 66RD
MS 65RB
You would have been better to screen them out for your friend, and advise him not to send and waste time and money.
I have to do it all the time for folks that come in the shop wanting to submit coins. You should see some of the stuff people come in with because they want to get it certified.
I'm imagining all the people holding these colorful coins going into a panic similar to a stock market crash. SELL SELL SELL
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
This seems to imply you were shocked by the 16/17 coins getting QC, and yet...
This seems to imply that you were not shocked by most of the coins going QC.
It seems like the situation is not as sensational as it is being made out to be.
The Lincolns in the first post look like they may have been exposed to hot gas like a torch from a distance. Strange color formation. I may be wrong but another thing I notice is on the quarters both sides are equally toned, something I doubt happens naturally very often. I can believe a cent turning brown on both sides but a cent turning bright colors on both sides with the exception of proofs is questionable IMO.
Edited to add that the ones BG posted look NT to me.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
How do copper coins less than 18 years old tone in such a manner other than with some 'Toner Helper' along the way?
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