A new way to sell counterfeits - call them Hobos....
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Zoins
Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
That medal wouldn't qualify as a counterfeit. It isn't the same design as the original. I wouldn't call it a hobo nickel
, but that item is perfectly legal as a medal, token, or souvenir.
It’s actually a counterfeit of a pattern J-1512/P-1676.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1877-50c-morgan-half-dollar-judd-1512-pollock-1676-high-r7-pr62-ngc/a/1121-1873.s
The listing appears to have gone "poof."
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
Can you counterfeit a pattern? Dan Carr, where are you?
Not being a smart aleck. Genuinely curious. Isn't it something like the 1964 fantasy peace dollars??? Copies of technically non-existent coins.
Zoins, this is the way it starts which is why I am so adamant about SC$'s and a strict adherence to the catalogue listings. in essence, anyone is free to call anything what they want if collectors individually and the Hobby as a group don't have enough of a spine to stand up straight.
I suppose I could change your thread title to read like this:
A new way to sell generic medals --- call them unlisted So-Called Dollars
I can't speak for others, only myself, and I am standing upright.
RE: "Can you counterfeit a pattern?"
Yes. Read HPA. Includes medals, also.
I routinely run hobo searches at fleabay & have noticed the recent plethora of fantasy hobo strikes.
Here's one I am following for fun:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Novelty-Hobo-Large-Cent-SKULL-HC01J/142674267976?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Concerning Novelty or Fantasy or Non Copy marked Copies, its legal to sell any or all of these with proper seller disclosure, right ?
Fleabay offers two dedicated areas within US Coins to list these:
https://www.ebay.com/b/Fantasy-Issue-Coins/162135/bn_2312116
https://www.ebay.com/b/US-Novelty-Coins/139962/bn_2311466
interesting. But then how does Dan Carr get away with his 64 or 65 Peace dollars? I've never understood it, but there must be a loophole.
That listing (in the OP, original is gone) would have me moving quickly on, just by the wording.... Cheers, RickO
Wow, I should have taken more screenshots. I was still able to grab the stand-alone obverse photo:
I have to disagree with this line of reasoning, again. A HK-unlisted medal is not a counterfeit and no one owns the "So-Called Dollar" term created by Thomas Elder. I believe HK came around 50 years after Elder first use the term?
I would compare the So-Called Dollar issue to something like the US Mint issues a coin but you can't call it a coin because it hasn't been catalogued in the Red Book.
There are no "loopholes" in HPA or the basic counterfeiting laws. The items you mention are untested in court.
hmmm...thanks for the info. Every time I ask about those coins, someone shouts me down.
@jmlanzaf I'm not sure why you'd be "shouted down". The discussion on Dan's pieces has been had many times here. To me, the reasoning is very clear, it's just that not everyone agrees on it. Some believe his reasoning and some don't. As for the reasoning, read any of Dan's website pages on his fantasy overstrikes on why he considers them legal. It's been posted for almost 10 years.
Dan's pieces may be untested in court but he's willing to defend himself there. Also of interest, there is documentation posted online of action initiated against him through the ANA by a member but I don't think that went anywhere. It's still interesting to see the arguments presented by both sides. I believe it was taken by a forum member here.
Aren't hobos also known as "bums?"
What's wrong with bum coins?
I'm not sure why I was so interested in saving the images. They are right here. I chose to show the reverse here but the obverse is the same as above if you click through to view.
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&SearchText=1877+coin+morgan
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/American-1877-Morgan-Half-Dollar-Brass-Silver-Plated-Replica-Coins/32781507212.html
No one is "shouting you down." It appears that they are just educating you and correcting some misinformation you have posted. I
In addition to the Red Book I encouraged you to purchase and read in a PM, there are several references on Pattern coins. By becoming a member of the ANA you can check them out of the library for just the cost of postage.
Happy Collecting!
Okay, this is a bit concerning. Right on the AliExpress ad:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/American-1877-Morgan-Half-Dollar-Brass-Silver-Plated-Replica-Coins/32781507212.html
Thanks for the heads up. I've looked on his site before for documentation, but never thought to click on a product page to find the disclaimer.
I appreciate the assist. As I said, I've asked twice before and people just flamed me for being an idiot. Appreciate someone actually pointing me in the right direction.
Are Dan Carr's coins in the Red book? Or are they in Judd? I couldn't find them in either place. Could you please look in your Red book and give me the page number?
Is it possible that you simply didn't follow the thread or understand the question?
I'm not sure about the Red Book yet, but they are in Krause. Do you have a copy?
https://www.amazon.com/Unusual-World-Coins-Companion-Standard/dp/1440217025
I was just poking at Insider2. He clearly did not follow the thread. The answer to my question on Dan Carr was where you told me it would be. It is nowhere to be found where Insider2 sent me.
Thank YOU again!
Joe
No worries. Glad you found it and had your question answered!
I'm glad to learn you have a copy of Judd and the Red Book but why so angry?
My heartfelt
advice to you had nothing to do with the thread. Based on your posting history and comments in other discussions about coins that I have read since you joined, I tried to help you get up to speed. I enjoy helping out new collectors. I should have realized that you are actually an "expert" as you have been given a "5 star" rating extremely quickly - just a matter of months - surly a record on CU.
As you must know, numismatists have terms that describe all types of the things we see. "Pattern" for example. Many of us (as you posted), are aware that Mr. Carr's issues are not in the Red Book. In my stupidity, I believed that some numismatists besides me recognize both "official" and "unofficial" patterns. That's why I own some "Concept" dollars made by Mr. Carr.
PS I shall enjoy learning so much more from you in the future.
Zoins, you are hopeless and miss the point entirely.
No, it’s that I disagree with this point. I don’t see an issue with someone calling an HK-unlisted medal a So-Called Dollar. I don’t believe in being the SCD terminology police.
You’ve taken issue with event medals being called So-Called Dollars because the event wasn’t cataloged by HK. One issue for me, and it seems the TPGs, is they aren’t adding new events. Many of the events in HK are seemingly insignificant to me but you would draw a line between one event in HK and another not in HK solely because one was listed in the 1960s, by a team that adopted the So-Called Dollar term 50 years after it was created by someone else.
Zoins, my point is simple so I will state it for you:
a seller can represent something however they choose, but calling it a "Hobo" doesn't make it one. you seem upset by that and probably should say something if you are upset, which you did. if others start to call their counterfeits "Hobos" and no one speaks up the end result is predictable.
and so it happened with medals. we may disagree with what is/isn't a SC$ but the premise is accurate. once people decided to call generic medals a So-Called Dollar several years ago and listed them as such at eBay it was nothing but a ploy to draw attention to them in a category where they didn't belong. that may be different today, perhaps medals which would be classified as SC$'s are listed at that site, but the flood started with a few sellers only when the new edition of the book was released and selling prices started to rise.
it is a marketing tactic that a lot of sellers use. the category started by eBay has become a dumping ground and catch all for sellers. it watered down the actual listing as the category went from perhaps 200-300 listings to over 4,000. if you search on"HK" the total drops to around 900.
@keets said: "...and so it happened with medals. we may disagree with what is/isn't a SC$ but the premise is accurate. once people decided to call generic medals a So-Called Dollar several years ago and listed them as such at eBay it was nothing but a ploy to draw attention to them in a category where they didn't belong. that may be different today, perhaps medals which would be classified as SC$'s are listed at that site, but the flood started with a few sellers only when the new edition of the book was released and selling prices started to rise.
it is a marketing tactic that a lot of sellers use. the category started by eBay has become a dumping ground and catch all for sellers. it watered down the actual listing as the category went from perhaps 200-300 listings to over 4,000. if you search on"HK" the total drops to around 900."
AFAIK, H&K chose to limit the items included in there publication and noted what they included as a way of defining what a SC$ was. The book has been updated. Thus, some items have been assigned HK #'s and some struck during a contemporary period have not. It should be obvious to anyone that important and not important "celebrations and commemorations" will continue to happen. Perhaps in the future, Pottstown, Pa will be 400 Years old and issue a dollar sized medal - a SC$. If we think about it there are lots of similar things that have been made since the HK pieces were chosen and numbered. Just because they don't have a description, number, and image in a book should not eliminate them from a category. That is a very narrow view.
Until now, I was unaware of the "problem" raised here. If an item has an HK # it is a published SC$ and considered by purists to be the "real thing." However, if it is not in the book, big deal. I know, let's call it a "HOBO."
The Hobby Protection Act of 1973, as upgraded and amended, is quite clear that "Imitation Numismatic Items" need to be incused with the word "COPY" even if they are not exact copies of existing numismatic items. This includes slight variances in dates and mint marks.
Dude, I've been a coin dealer for 20 years. I'm not a "new collector".
How wide are the doors in your house? Will your head even fit?
I'm not angry, sir. I was just imploring a learned old man like yourself to help a poor little waif like me to find a page in one of these big old paper things. I didn't mean to bother you, sir, but you were so sure I could find what I wanted in my Red Book that I just looked and looked and couldn't find it anywhere. I came to you, despite being incredibly intimidated by your eloquence and grandeur, and simply asked for help. I didn't meant to bother or offend you. Please, have mercy on my ignorant self.
@jmlanzaf said: "Dude, I've been a coin dealer for 20 years. I'm not a "new collector". How wide are the doors in your house? Will your head even fit?
LOL, My house has a very small door. I'm in the doghouse as it appears that one of my corrections to a post you made in another discussion is no longer there.
20 years! Wow! Color me a very embarrassed "Dude" as I never guessed that by your posts. That's why I was trying to jump start your learning process by suggesting that you read a Red Book and join the ANA.
Please accept my sincere apology!
As I already posted, you must be a very important dealer to get promoted on the forum so quickly. I believe there are several well-known "big-time" dealers with over forty years in the business on CU that have not been given your "rating."
PS Are your initials L. S.
Interesting, I will read up on the HPA.
Seems more restrictive than I believed it to be.
I wasn't aware that an incuse COPY mark was required on these items.
Doesn't seem like an enforced Act, is it ?
Lindy
Clearly, the sincerest apology I've ever heard. Forget what I said on the other thread, the feud is still on.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why more people don't like you... Then again, you can't expect a nitwit like myself to understand those big ol' complicated questions.
Unfortunately, some coins for sale on the net that have "copy" on them do not have it on the coin that is shipped to you.
Can we/you please keep your personal feelings about others confined to a PM? they do not belong in a discussion.
I promised never to PM you.
I'll stop venting, if you stop calling me an idiot - either directly or by implication. I keep trying to mend fences, and you keep taking shots.
It is enforced on eBay - it's even over-enforced. Technically, you can't even have a replica WITH "COPY" on it listed on eBay. That is why you don't see any listings with "replica" or "copy" or "reproduction" and why clever individuals (I've done it myself) opt for "fantasy" (oddly allowed) or, it seems, "hobo".
As for whether the Feds bother, the answer is usually not. But, not exactly easy for them to go and jump in to every 99 cent deal out of China. I'm not sure why they don't bother with obvious larger shops (not naming names), but they don't.
I'm actually not upset since I don't think it's worth being upset over things that I have little control over. I find it interesting and wanted to let people know how creative these folks were becoming. I can understand if you are upset over the SCD situation, but I don't think our feelings are the same here.
I search the bay for SCDs a lot, but I actually don't see too many "generic medals" as you say. When I think of generic medals, I think of items such as military medals, political medals, cathedral medals, US Mint medals, challenge coins, jetons, etc. I don't see many, if any, of these in the SCD category. Most of the medals I saw in the SCD category were actually event medals or event tokens. Events are covered by SCDs so from that perspective, I am fine with it.
As mentioned, I'm actually okay with most of the items I see in So-Called Dollars which are event-related. Perhaps I'm just more accepting. I did suggest you limit your search to "HK" in an earlier thread because you are primarily interested in HK-listed items.