Getting Cards Cut From Sheets
Kep13
Posts: 515 ✭✭✭
I received some full sheets of various insert sets from back in the late 80's-mid 90's from a guy who actually worked at the print shop where the cards were made. I wonder if I could take sheets like these to a random print shop these days and have them laser cut them for me so they are centered, sharp, etc....anyone have any idea if this is possible? Thanks
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I'll bite, sure you can. My view on sheet cut cards is different than most. They don't bother or hinder any possible purchase for my own collection. All the cards we collect, well 98% of them, came from sheets. I don't care if the card came from a pack originally cut from a sheet, or if the card was cut from a sheet years later. All the same to me. Don't expect many to back me up on that however, everybody collects differently.
I have a question.
If something is laser cut? Can it be detected like using some kind of sharp blade?
I don't buy "low pop" cards - and not in 10 - but I can see where a person who paid big bucks for a low pop that had actually come from regular distribution?
They wouldn't be excited about their card coming from a sheet?
I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here I guess?
I guess I see it as these are the same sheets that did get cut up and were inserted into packs from those years --- these sheets just happened to be kept aside and were given to me and the guy's son...I guess if they typically cut with blades, then that would be fine...however they were cut back then....I don't see the difference if the sheet gets cut now or if it was cut back then, but I'd be willing to hear an opposite point of view...
Here's the opposing view:
Part of the fun of collecting high grade vintage cards is the long odds on them surviving in nice shape all those years...especially those that are tough to find centered. Cutting cards from sheets now is not that different from printing new sheets now and cutting them up. Both circumvent the normal life cycle of a card and create a situation where a card is high grade due to contrived and artificial means.
100% agree. Unless you believe all vintage cards should be worth much less than what they are worth today. Sure, all cards were cut from a sheet, but there is an enormous difference between the cutting process and techniques from decades ago vs today. It's not even a reasonable analogy, really. That's why virtually every card that comes out of a modern pack is mint to gem mint whereas cards coming out of a 1970s wax pack are NM-MT, on average, if you're lucky, and even worse than that due to centering issues.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think you're getting it loud and clear.
As I said - it wouldn't be fair to those who paid big bucks for a card out of a pack to have someone cut one from a sheet today.
As Tim said - and I was alluding - cutting processes have changed drastically - there are some cards that are "near impossible" to find well centered due to cutting and position on the sheet.
I only have to look at my 63F BB set to attest that?
Good question. Good discussion.
Tim - are you going to the National this year?
Thanks guys...all good and valid points...I guess I can find a way to get these sheets nicely framed then....a shamed to have them in a stack in one of my card rooms...
I totally respect the purists who only want cards that were printed and cut years ago to qualify as a genuine card.
I also respect the high end set builder who finds it impossible to find a certain card over a PSA 7 due to printing or centering issues and wants to find a surviving sheet, cut it, and get a PSA 9 from it for his collection.
I can respect both perspectives, and just take it as different collectors having different opinions.
In the end, do whatever you want to meet your hobby objectives. What you do does not have to fall in line with what someone else thinks.
PSA will not grade sheet cut, however BGS will
I'm with you on all of the rest of it except this part. I collect high grade vintage Dallas Cowboys and fall in the camp of it's a tremendous difference in my mind to have an item be cut at the factory in the 1960's and survive in that shape to be graded vs. someone seeking out a sheet, cutting and submitting it to PSA to be graded. Particularly in the case you describe which would be very upsetting to the market of established items in the PSA 7 range to have a, in my opinion, false PSA 9 come into the population.
I searched for a long while to find this card raw hoping it would grade an 8 - and fortunately when I submitted it, it did. There are no 10's, no 9's, no 8.5's of this card and only eighteen 8's:
I paid $4 + grading fees for it, typically sells for between $300-$400. If someone were to go sheet cut one and submit it for a PSA 9 or PSA 10 grade I would be furious. The sheet could be totally mauled around the edges and if this card is in the middle of the sheet, it could be perfect. But it's clearly a false perfection and, in my opinion, should not be put in a holder by any grading company other than with an Authentic designation (maybe - I even struggle with that as it's really not).
I respect your opinion, I just have a strong feeling in the other direction on this one is all.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
Yes, get them framed and create an awesome display. Post some pictures if you can of them now.
PSA has graded thousands of sheet cut cards. Their policy is not to grade them, but many upon many have slipped past the graders.
Totally stand with you on this. I totally respect your slant. I used to be in this camp. It wasn't until many submitters started getting sheet cut cards past the PSA graders that I threw in the towel. Many cards that were once deemed impossible became possible. Just pray that there aren't a few of those sheets left, because the high grade set builder will not care of it comes from the sheet. He will pay through the nose for it, and make himself, and the submitter happy.
Right, however BGS policy considers any card as if it was pack pulled and does not care or distinguish whether it was factory cut. Not sure how we can prove the thousands of sheet cut cards PSA has graded?
How can PSA or more importantly us detect a sheet cut card? Anything tell tale or that shows up under UV? I assume you are under the same guise as trimmed, but trimmed by an amateur is easier to see. I myself have had my fair share of minsizerq becoming eventually holdered, but now this conversation has me considering my collection had to have passed by sheet cut cards unknowingly at some point--seems probable.
Case in point is the 1968 O-Pee-Chee Bobby Orr #2 card. This card was going to go down in collecting history as "The Impossible 9". Vending examples were always o/c, and wax pack examples were not only o/c, but also had a horrible horizontal slant. There was no way it was EVER going to grade 9. Then the O-Pee-Chee factory had Mastro Auctions sell a boatload of high grade sheets years ago. I know who won them (not me). I know they cut them. I know PSA graded them. PSA would not have graded them if they knew it, but the cutting technique was fantastic, and these guys made a fortune, and collectors bought up these gems at high prices. The pop report now shows a couple PSA 9 Bobby Orr's #2 from 1968 opc, and these cards came from sheets.
Ok , understood however 2< thousands
I'd rather the sheet be preserved. There aren't many sheets left around compared to actual cards, after all. It's a piece of history. Cutting them removes any history, it's just a standard card then. But I know how hard it is to store them and keep them in good shape, I have a few in my collection...and passed over a few others due to lack of ability to keep them safe just from where they were to getting them home.
I have the only surviving uncut sheet of the 1982 Wrestling All Stars Series A. In conversations with a dealer who has subbed many high grade cards from lots of different genres it was said the only way to land a Hogan 10 would be an uncut sheet. I think in sets where the cutting blade was perfect there is a very high probability a card cut from a sheet can pass undetected. The 82 Wrestling All Stars bow inwards on the sides almost like the top edge of the 1961 Fleer Basketball. Perhaps it was a dull blade, or bad technique or perhaps both but if you have handled one and examined it you will see it. The ultimate hope is that PSA becomes familiar with a set enough to be able to tell what a factory cut looks like. I personally have a hard time grading OPC rough cut cards but I totally understand why the purist collector would prefer one.
The purist in me agrees. But as you said, due to the size of these sheets, and a lack of space leads the collector to ponder different ideas concerning them.
True story. I had Gordie Howe sign my 1979 Topps hockey sheet with a Gretzky on it. When Gordie signed it for me in Valley Forge, PA he told me that a buddy of his gave him his rookie card sheet for doing a golf tournament with him. Imagine having that 1951 Parkhurst sheet with all those pristine rookies on there ? Gordie has passed, so maybe Mark has the sheet now. Who knows.
People who have been in the hobby before PSA even started know the truth if they've followed the hobby closely for years, speaking to dealers, and watching big auction houses and ebay. There are some very knowledgeable people in the hobby. Trust me, there are thousands of sheet cut cards in holders, and I would venture to say thousands of cleaned cards in holders. Heck, I am the one responsible for writing PSA about an incredibly rare hockey card that was altered, submitted to PSA, and passed through the grader. It happens. We're all human. PSA is the best, but the greedy people out there will do anything to make a buck. They have perfected the cutting process to cut perfect old style OPC cards and Topps cards. There is very little the grader can do to detect it.
The cardboard edges of vintage cards from the 1970s exhibit a distinct style cut and color that is different from what you'd see with a card cut using modern technology or a laser cut. When you tilt the card under the light, the differences become apparent.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Is there a thread on here or elsewhere with details of the hockey card you're referring to? I'd love to read about it. If not would you care to share the story either here or via PM?
Kevin
Kevin
Good idea Kep.
I have a 76T sheet with HOF'ers that looks great on the wall IMO.
I have some uncut 132-card sheets from 1991 I would like to have cut into singles also.
Where can I get this done?
Thank you
Tim
wait so PSA won't grade sheet cut cards, but grade numerous types of "handcut" stuff, notably 84 o-pee-chee and even give it the "handcut" designation on the label.
myslabs.to/smzcards
I inquired briefly, with a local printing shop and one of the big box places (Staples I think) about a sheet where 1 card was part of a potential trade and was told that it would be fairly expensive to do. They both said they charge by the cut. I don't know much about printing processes, so I would assume a strip either vertically or horizontally would be cut from the sheet, then each card cut separately?
If there is a reasonably priced method to cutting down a standard 132 (or smaller) sheet into singles, I would be curious to know the fee and where it can be done. Storing sheets is a pain.
PSA grades any cards that are cut by hand that were issued in uncut sheets or panels. They won't grade cards that came in packs and were not supposed to be issued in sheet/panel form. The above mentioned uncut sheets were not supposed to be kept by the printer.
got it, thanks.
myslabs.to/smzcards
You seem to "know" a lot
Frame the sheets. Much rarer that way. And much easier to enjoy when you can stare at them every day.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
oh, sheet cut cards
never such another topic been so controversial
I've learned after many years, that you can NOT change opinions
for those who love them (me) ... enjoy them and buy as many as you can
because ... if PSA ever changes their policy on grading them
... I'll never pick them up for cheap again
ever hear of the expression "buy the card, not the grade" ? ... I truly live buy it
others can buy the grade & I'll save 90%
Hiya Anthony
That looks like a new display?
Incredibly nice buddy.
See you at the National? Time has a way of flying.
maybe that is the policy, but not always the case
I've seen a couple of "meaty" border Marino rookies, that were graded PSA 10
in the oversized slabs
I'm sure these were not the only ones
just what I saw
Buy all my 52 sheets, you'll make a fortune
And along those same lines, any unopened packs that have been stored away safe and sound all those years that end up having a gem mint 10 card in there of importance should also be held in a lesser regard just like the ones cut from sheets.
Unless the process for opening a pack has changed since the seventies, I don't see the analogy.
Obviously any surviving high grade vintage card is the result of atypical care being taken.
Whether care was taken of the cards themselves or an unopened pack makes little difference.
I am sure they have been shown before, but please post a few pics so they can be enjoyed! Or someone link me. I have to see this display.
I was just stating their policy to clarify, I am aware they sometimes mistakenly grade cards that are trimmed and/or sheet cut.
The normal life cycle of the card does not involve it sitting in a case, untouched, for 40 years. If the beauty of finding a gem mint card in vintage is predicated on the fact a lot were miscut and then the journey of 40 years of handling in some form or fashion, then we are cutting out part of that long journey by keeping them sealed up. Much like cutting it today from a sheet, opening it from a sealed case decades after the fact enhances the opportunity to arrive upon a gem mint example.
The vast majority of cards coming out of an unopened vintage pack may have sharp corners (though corner dings are not uncommon even with cards pulled from unopened packs) but it's centering that is the biggest issue relegating those cards to PSA 7 instead of PSA 10. If you cut the card from the sheet with 80/20 centering, then I'd say you have a reasonable analogy but of course anyone cutting a card from a sheet is going to make sure that card is cut as well centered as possible (with razor sharp corners, of course), utilizing modern technology on vintage cardboard.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm a OPC hockey guy, and it is becoming very difficult to tell what to buy or not to buy from the 80's especially.
This is an example of the 1968 Orr that was up on eBay about seven or eight years ago. Even the dealer selling the card advertised it as sheet cut. Even as a registry collector trying to compete with the Orr crowd, I wouldn't touch this card. I will always want legit cards from the time period from factories, not sheet cut from basically a poster.
Here is my PSA 8, which is in my opinion a factory cut card.
The rewards are too great compared to the risks when submitting sheet cut cards. At worst, you are out $20 on a grading submission. At best, you are up thousands on a low pop card.
-Nathanael
It looks to me that keeping a complete uncut sheet unscathed for decades and decades might be difficult also. I doubt there are stacks and stacks of mint uncut sheets of 70's and back cards from any genre. These are "collectibles' in and amongst themselves.
As someone who is addicted to 1975 - 1979 Hostess cards in both single and panel form, if there was a relatively affordable way to have these precision cut, I'd love to know about it. My methods never seem to leave me 100% happy.
Beyond that, I am in favor of PSA's philosophy on grading "cut" cards.
I can go with this.
I was just disagreeing about the journey part of it. If we say it is completely about the centering, then I am on board.
I'm a huge 80's Hockey guy also
and you can certainly buy what you want
but ... I really do not like or think its a true statement
when it comes to legit / not legit
the cards ARE legit
they are not reprints or fakes
they were printed during the same period by official companies
how and when they were cut, it's your OPINION only
you're welcome to buy what you want
but don't start putting a stink in peoples minds about their collections
time will tell on this matter
Yes, the cards and the sheet are legit...but when you start cutting them with perfect centering because you can do so in 2018 what wasn't being done in 1988, that's a huge difference. Let's face it~much of the value of these cards is based on centering out of the pack. If you can bypass that issue by cutting your own cards, well, that value ought to be reduced commensurate with the degree of difficulty not being nearly as great, centering-wise. If that is not a factor for you, you're missing the point about what gives vintage cards the value they possess.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
PSA has made very specific rules about cards that are eligible to be graded. I accept all of their criteria. I think the minimum size requirement is kind of lame, but that is a minor concern.
I love box bottom cards and have enjoyed cutting up boxes to get high grades, and understand that is within the PSA eligibility rules for grading.
The point is, I only want PSA to uphold the rules it sets forth for us to follow. I don't like sheet cut cards, but that's just me. We all collect what we like and what makes us happy. If someone else doesn't mind sheet cut cards in their collection, grand, just as long as they aren't in PSA holders.
-Nathanael
Well said!