On the Twelfth Day of Christmas, My True Love Gave to Me ...

giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
edited January 28, 2018 4:58AM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

An 1882-Ga (Guadalajara) FS 8 Reales, AU55, with great surfaces, Pop 1/2 at PCGS. Although there is an 1882/1 overdate known, this is the normal date. Authors Mike Dunigan and J.B. Parker comment in Resplandores: The Cap and Rays 8 Reales of The Republic of Mexico 1823–1897 (Superior Stamp & Coin, 1997) that "this date is available in all grades and is exceptionally beautiful in Uncirculated condition." The FS is for assayer Ferando Sayago, who served from 1880–1882. The two finer at PCGS are one AU58 and one MS64.

And an 1877-Go FR (Guanajuato) 8 Reales, MS63 PCGS, with incredible color! Population 5/6 ... and this one is the largest of the three CoinFacts plate coins. The "FR" is for assayer Faustino Ramirez, who served from 1870–1878.

Kind regards,

George

VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.

Comments

  • mvs7mvs7 Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2018 11:45AM

    That coin is awesome... Love the color. Nice job by your true love!

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 8,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice!!! :)

  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    Superb coins.

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 4,120 ✭✭✭✭

    B)

    8/11/97
    7/27/75

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 5:24AM

    An 1893-Ga (Guadalajara) JS 8 Reales, MS64 PCGS, Pop 4 in this grade with one finer, an MS65. The JS stands for assayer Jose Schiafino, whose tenure ran from 1885–1895. The Guadalajara mint was opened in 1812 under Spanish colonial rule, striking silver 1/2, 1, 2, 4, and 8 Reales coins through 1815. It reopened in 1818 and continued operating through 1822. It was the only Royalist mint, according to some online sources I consulted, that also struck gold 4 and 8 Escudos. Under the Mexican Republic, it struck Cap and Rays 8 Reales coins first in 1825 and continued with only minor interruptions until closing on June 30, 1895.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2018 5:45AM

    Two 8 Reales struck at the Oaxaca mint, an 1879-Oa AE signifying assayer Agustin Edner, and an 1891-Oa EN struck under assayer Eduardo Navarro Luna. Both coins are AU58 PCGS, and both are Pop 1/0 at that service.

    Unlike prolific mints like Zacatecas and Mexico City, the Oaxaca mint started producing 8 Reales much later, in 1858, and only ran through 1893. Mintages were generally low, when their numbers are known at all, and Uncirculated examples from this mint tend to be scarce or rare. The 1879 issue here was struck to the extent of 153,000 coins, and the 1891 160,000 pieces. Further heightening the interest surrounding Oaxaca issues are the curious 1861-64 issues, which show two completely different die styles for the same years (one crude, one much finer) and different-style mintmarks. One had an O mintmark, the other had a small 'A' inside the O. Resplandores authors Dunigan and Parker have concluded that two different mints, using the same assayer, were responsible for striking these interesting productions.

    The later days of Christmas will be getting better and better ... Thanks for reading.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2018 6:36AM

    An early- and a late-date 8 Reales from Guanajuato. The 1839 Go PJ is (under)graded AU55 but has great color, Pop 1 with 3 finer, 1 in AU58 and 2 in MS63. A common date, given the numerous listings available for the issue. There are an overdate 1839/8 and an over assayer P over J varieties known, but this is neither. The PJ is for an unknown assayer who served from 1834–1842. Note the early-style mintmark, with small O inside the G, in contrast to the later coin. Guanajuato made Hookneck-style 8 Reales in 1824 and 1825. Dunigan and Parker write that "in 1830 Guanajuato became the first mint in Mexico to produce its 8 Reales from hubs," greatly improving the quality of the coinage.

    The 1896-Go RS is an MS63, Pop 4 in this grade with 1 finer, an MS65. Rosendo Sandoval was the assayer, serving through 1900 which would have included the transition from the Cap and Rays 8 Reales to the Cap and Rays (Liberty Cap) 1 Peso coins, which debuted in 1898.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2018 7:53AM

    These two 1 Peso coins are both dated 1901, but in other ways it seems that they could not be more different. The top coin was struck at the Zacatecas mint, 1901-Zs FZ MS62 PCGS, Pop 12 in this grade with 19 Mint State pieces finer (finest a single MS65). Such populations are rather emblematic of this fecund mint, which struck high numbers of Spanish colonial 8 Reales starting in 1810, the Cap and Rays 8 Reales from 1825–1897, and the 1 Peso coins commencing in 1898.

    The bottom coin is 1901-Cn JQ MS62 PCGS, struck at the Culiacán mint, Pop 2 in this grade with 2 finer, 1 each in MS64 and MS65. This would seem to indicate either far-lower mintages or greater circulation for these pieces, but I lack concrete evidence of that. (Maybe a lot more of the Zacatecas coins were stored in bags, like BU Morgan dollars. Who knows, I am just getting into these coins and loving finding out a little bit more every day.)

    While these coins are appealing, they seem to lack the "handmade" feel of the earlier Cap and Rays 8 Reales, and certainly of the Spanish colonial 8 Reales that precede them.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    Love the pesos @giorgio11 in fact personally, like them better than the 8 reales. Great examples.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting @Abuelo ... I hope you don't mind if I call you Grandfather ... Why do you like the Pesos better than the 8 Reales? Shorter series and more completable? I'd be interested in your views.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    This is an 1875-Ga (Guadalajara) MC 8 Reales, certified MS64 by our hosts, Pop 1 in this grade with none finer. Another piece with strictly original surfaces, just the way I like them. I have seen so many 8 Reales with washed-out surfaces that look like they have been dipped repeatedly, just like many Morgan dollars. I wonder how similar the two countries' series histories are, given that Morgan dollars were struck only starting in 1878, while the Cap and Rays 8 Reales came to life more than a half-century earlier ... Still, it is clear that there were immense quantities of gold and silver washing around Mexico far earlier than in the United States ... Were these coins stored in bags in banks and shipped around internationally, first under Spain, then under Mexico, like Seated and Morgan dollars were, and their gold counterparts? I wonder how many 8 Reales were struck compared to the vast quantities of Morgans. It certainly appears that the earlier 8 Reales dates from some scarce mints are seen far less often than the later ... Given how long the series is overall from 1823–1897 (I think the PCGS Registry Set contains over 1100 coins), I have seen relatively few mintage figures.

    So many questions, so little time!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    @giorgio11 for once, you can complete it! Maybe, as there are a couple of rarities... But the design is less crude. That is why.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    I guess overall I like the older coins in the same way I like Bust halves ... for the handmade feel, as I said ... But there is a lot to be said for a series that is completable! It makes me wonder how close J.B Parker came ... The dust cover of Resplandores says "Over the next 29 years, Mr. Parker amassed the most complete collection of Mexican Cap and Rays 8 Reales ever assembled." Of course this was written in 1997. I know enough already about the Cap and Rays 8 Reales series, though, to know that even a single Mint State example from each mint (14 in all) that struck them would be a challenge, given the single-year issue (1863) from Catorce and the difficult issues from Guadalupe y Calvo and Estado de Mexico.

    Which are the most difficult early Pesos @Abuelo?

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2018 7:51PM

    @giorgio11 , as far as I can tell, the most difficult peso to get from that series, is the 1902CN JQ 2/INVERTED 2. There is only one graded by either PCGS or NGC (Norweb) and I have never been able to see another specimen raw. Classically, 1901ZS AZ has been considered the key to the series. But I have seen a few, even on details, so likely more common than the inverted 2. 1903MO MA is also exceedingly rare. But are others very rare too, such as 1902/1 for example. So the series is with no question smaller than 8R, but very difficult to complete, and unless more inverted 2 are found, impossible if you do not have the single known coin.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2018 7:00AM

    An 1892-Pi (San Luis Potosí) MR 8 Reales, MS64 PCGS, the only one in this grade with one MS65 finer. The MR signifies assayer Mariano Reyes, whose confirmed service was 1886–1893. (The MR of 1879–1880 was also possibly the same man, per Dunigan and Parker.) Two notes: One. How can people write an entire book about Spanish coins and not include a single accent or eñe (ñ)? The word is Potosí (pronounced poe-toe-SEE, not Potosi which would be pronounced poe-TOE-see.) And it's jalapeño, not jalapeno. And thank you for allowing my little minirant. Two. The mints (and cities) of San Luis Potosí and Potosí are different. The former is in Mexico, the latter is in Bolivia. The mint in Bolivia is called the Casa Nacional de la Moneda, opened in 1572. The mines in Potosí were the richest in the world and mined more silver than any others. The mint at San Luis Potosí is in the capital city of the Mexican state of San Luis Potosí, and it has a much shorter history than its Bolivian namesake (and sister city). It opened in 1827 and struck only 8 Reales in quantity, although fractional pieces are known. It closed in 1893.

    And an 1894-Ho (Hermosillo) FG 8 Reales, MS63 PCGS, Pop 5 in this grade with one finer—although I doubt any of the others have such spectacular color and strike! The FG acronym is for assayer Fausto Gaxiola, whose tenure was 1886–1895. Hermosillo is the capital city of the Mexican state of Sonora. It first struck 8 Reales illegally from 1835–1839 (these are very rare), and legally from 1861–1895. Dunigan and Parker write that most of the issue was sent to the Orient, and given the limited span of authorized mintages, it must be considered one of the scarcer mints that struck the series. It closed in 1895.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2018 6:33AM

    @Abuelo thank you for the notes regarding the rare one Peso issues! Very kind and interesting. I have the Norweb catalogs (and Mrs. Norweb's complete Roosevelt dimes set, although there I appear to be the greatest fool) ... I must go back now and see if I can find that listed in the sale! And I'll take a much closer look now at the series overall ... especially the top Registry Sets and the photos they contain!

    Thanks very much for sharing your expertise!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,782 ✭✭✭✭

    Feel free to change the lyrics and add afew days...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • cecropiamothcecropiamoth Posts: 502 ✭✭✭

    The cap and rays 8's are certainly becoming a very, very popular series right now. George, this is a great group of coins you have acquired. I would be happy to own any of these and add them to my hoard!!

    Jeff

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    The late-series Cap and Rays 8 Reales are more widely seen than earlier issues, of course, and Zacatecas was among the most prolific mints striking this long-running series. Even so, this 1893-Zs FZ 8 Reales in MS66 PCGS is one of two in this highest grade for the issue. More importantly, it is one of only 39 in MS66 (three of them MS66+) for the entire design type, all dates, all mints.

    It doesn't hurt, either, that it features absolutely stunning toning in two different color palettes on the obverse and reverse. Numerous small die cracks on the obverse indicate that this die was on its last legs, but they were clearly stamping them out hard and fast in 1893 Zacatecas—more than 3.8 million coins, according to Buttrey and Hubbard. Nonetheless, this piece is strongly—I might even go for fully—struck, even though the planchet was a trifle off-center in the die, and features gorgeous, thick luster

    I was really, really fortunate to acquire these coins, and I paid strong money to get them. As a coin dealer for more than a half-century now (part-time for much of that span), I certainly recognize exceptional quality in an original, newfound hoard of coins on those rare occasions when one finds it, and I was ready and willing to step up to the plate. I am going to enjoy them for a while. Probably not as long as I might like.

    I was thinking about that cute Edna St. Vincent Millay sonnet, and for collectors and dealers I might change the ending couplet thusly:

    Whether or not we find what we are seeking
    Is idle, numismatically speaking.

    Thank you for the kind compliments and for reading my little essays. And thank you for the invitation to extend the song beyond the Twelve Days of Christmas, but alas, thus ends my little hoard, save for the sole Charles IIII 8 Reales that it on its way to me, thanks to @DosKopeiki. Uh, I mean, @TwoKopeiki!

    I am sure I will continue learning much more about Spanish colonial and Mexican numismatics (and their history; that's part of the fun for me, as well), so I may in future be posting a few more coins. Or not.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    Thanks George for sharing these fantastic pieces.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    My great pleasure @Abuelo.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,782 ✭✭✭✭

    Great commentary on one of the most complicated series in North America

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭

    Every one a nice piece!!
    Glad you found them a good home.

    Yorkshireman
    Obsessed collector of pieces of history.



    Yorkshireman's Box of 20
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    So. I may as well post one more, since it is the expansion set. This is the nice Charles IIII 8 Reales I recently acquired from DosKopeiki.

    Not sure which direction I will go from here ... maybe my two upcoming shows will help point me in the right direction. Suggestions thoughtfully considered.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • AbueloAbuelo Posts: 287 ✭✭✭

    @giorgio11 more Mexican 8 reales!!!

  • Wow! Such a beautiful gift this is. I am really happy for you and sincerely wish that you get many more gifts. Christmas is the best occasion to share the beautiful bond of love with each other.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you @sarikanair, I see you are new here so many welcomes to the forum and we look forward to your contributions!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    ¡Gracias @Abuelo! Voy a ver si hay algunos ejemplares en Knoxville que debo adquirir.

    Saludos cordiales,

    Jorge

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • erwindocerwindoc Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭✭

    Lovely coins George! Hope to say hi today and see what you have!

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    It took a while ... two weeks plus one day, actually ... for all of these coins to arrive via Registered Mail. So I have been able to enjoy their physical presence for only a short while. One coin, the 1856/5 in MS64 PCGS, is fully prooflike throughout the obverse and most of the reverse, save for one small area under the eagle's wing! Even though the dies may have been abused and overused, clearly the coiners in some cases took the time to thoroughly polish the dies, as was the case shortly before this coin was struck. Another example is fully prooflike on both sides ... this is out of 15 different dates/mints I now own.

    It was good to see @erwindoc and his friend. I did not get to walk the show as much as I would have liked because Mrs VDB stayed home, but the 8 Reales I saw at the show were cleaned, slider Uncs at best with absolutely no eye appeal.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    @Yorkshireman said:
    Every one a nice piece!!
    Glad you found them a good home.

    Lee aka @Yorkshireman I'm glad you managed to finally bring one of these home with you! I was just rereading this thread. A lot of fun to write! And thank you as well for the nice compliment you paid me at the show regarding same.

    That poem has always been a favorite of mine but I always thought the ending couplet was the weakest part. Madame Millay rawther boxed herself into a corner.

    Anyway.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 7,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great coins, glad to have been able to add two of them!

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭✭

    ^I can't think of a classier home for them!

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
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