I can't believe this! Any ideas?
Matt0224
Posts: 102 ✭✭
So I submitted an EXTREMELY beautiful Johnny Bench Rookie for grading and it just popped with "N1: Evidence of trimming" . I know the immediate thought is somewhere along the line someone trimmed it tough luck... but in this case my father is the original owner. I know this because we just "found" his card collection cleaning out a back room where this box had sat for 40+ years untouched. Nobody has handled this card since the late 60's. It is impossible for it to have been trimmed. What do I do? Resub? Go with BVG or SGC? Am I screwed?
I am so disappointed right now because everyone I showed this card said wow that is an amazing card I've never seen one as good as this. I mean dead centered beautiful corners soul crushing news.
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You could take a chance and re-sub it and hope it gets a better outcome- this has happened before. Or you could submit to SGC or BVG and see what happens.
Resub. I had the same thing happen with some of my dad's cards. First time, minsizrq, then eot, and eventually stabbed.
I feel your pain. I had a Nolan Ryan rookie that I sent in a couple of time that came back the same way. The catch was that the card was oversized!! You could see a little "wave" on the top border and to be honest, if someone that was good at trimming got ahold of it, they could have cut it down to the correct size and probably subbed it for an 8. The only real problems with it were on the same top border. I ended up selling mine raw but wish I still had it. I know this doesn't answer your question, but I suggest you put it up against another card that you know is the correct size and see if you have the same type of issue. Best of luck!
r-e-s-u-b
Sorry Matt I know you were looking forward to the grade on that one. Sounds like many of the vets of grading have given you some good advice.
Thanks guys! I'll resub i guess. Does this mean it actually was very high grade 8-9 range (or 10... we can all dream can't we) and they didn't believe this card could be in that great of shape or it could be anything and the grader just saw something and in his opinion it looked trimmed
Sorry to hear about the results. No reason to overthink it. The grader saw something that made them believe it was trimmed. EOT says absolutely nothing about what the grade of the card would be if it wasn't deemed to be trimmed. Sub again and maybe the results will be much different. Post a picture if you have one available.
seen someone resub the same "evidence of trim" card a few times until it graded by PSA. resub or send it back for review.
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I have 2 I believe this is the one that was sent out. Its not a scan was a picture i sent to a friend when we found the cards. I will post a scan when cards come back from PSA. Obviously it's just a picture of just the front so you really can't tell how good it is or not
I found this 8 listed on eBay and for
Comparisons here it is. To the naked eye the border distances around the card to the edges look similar...but I’m no expert.
here are mine for comparison
That photo shows a nice looking Bench. I would definitely resubmit that card.
Good luck,
Donato
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I thought my 8 had a shot at 10 and it is in for review, the 7 is already cracked out, I think it is at least an 8
Matt0224,
Your Bench rookie looks pretty good based on the pict. I would submit for sure. Here is mine.
My dad had left me some old coins. Sure enough, one can back "cleaned"! After finding his records, scratched on a piece of paper, I realized this was the single coin he purchased at an auction in the 60s. Card/coin doctors have been around for ever, even shaving coins to keep the tiniest bit of silver or gold.
Sorry this happened, and hoping it grades in the next trip.
This kind of makes the whole grading process a joke. This shows that if you do not like the outcome, resub and the grade will change. I agree in grading to make sure the card is the real thing and not a reprint or fake but I hear all the time on these boards that "it took me 3 times to get the grade I wanted or that the card deserved."
Did you check that it measures 2 1/2 x 3 1/2? It could be it is factory short and PSA deemed it EOT.
I feel that way, too, sometimes. But I try to remind myself that card grading is subjective - it's one company's (2-3 people's) opinion. I don't hear many people jumping 3 grades. Half point or point and usually after several attempts. Most people don't come here and post their 'Hey, I resubbed this card 20 times and never received a bump' stories because who's bragging about that? To me, most cards that rate 7 or better are often 'the same' to the naked eye, anyway. I know that the jump to 8-9-10 in vintage makes a huge difference value wise (is 9 to a 10 in modern a fair comparison for newer stuff?) but many of these same people are making huge profits off the bumps especially with the Set Registry crowd. But there's certainly risk in adding costs to already expensive cards. And I imagine it stings when you get the same card back and a 'nope.'
While I know specific grades are given, I also know that standards have changed over time (fact), more valuable cards get greater scrutiny, everyone over grades their own stuff and everyone seems to believe that certain people (not themselves) get special treatment. I also think the intelligent collector knows when they're looking at a card that is under OR overgraded and spends accordingly. As for ANY company that grades stuff, they're going to make 'mistakes' in as much as an opinion can be wrong. But more times than not, I think it comes down to not wanting to see the flaws in our own cardboard gems and not realizing just how high the standards are to achieve 'high grade.'
That Bench - trimmed or not - is beautiful. Based on your posted stories, I'd re submit it since you know it's legitimate. SGC also does nice work but if your intent is to profit, PSA cards (on average) seem to achieve the highest prices. I have cards in both slabs as certain issues look really nice ringed in the black insert.
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What level did you submit it under?
Arthur
Sometimes, in my opinion, the grading companies take themselves too serious. They worry about "miscuts", "oversized", "recoloring", "minimum size requirements" etc. It's kind of like the catch rules in the NFL. A catch isn't always a catch and apparently a card isn't always a card. Should they grade miscut cards, yes. Should they grade oversized cards, yes. I've had one company grade a card and then another company tell me that it's recolored (by the way it's not recolored). How can there be so many variances and opinions? Because every one wants to put there touch on the grading. Like we learned when we were kids "KISS", keep it simple.
Unless there is overwhelming evidence something is wrong with the "card" and the grader can plainly see it, then just grade it.
Thanks for all the info guys. I am definitely going to resub since i know 100% this wasn't altered. Is this PSA telling me I have to submit at a higher level? I submitted at regular service level as because I was worried about over grading my own card (ex if i thought it was an 8 i submit at a 6-7)
Also are there different levels of graders like level 1 or 2 or like a master grader or is it all just guys they know or hire off the street. It'd be interesting to know the on staff graders history, experience, years in the industry etc etc. Do they monitor the grades to see if one has a history of over or under grading? I mean do they see a guy is give out a ton of 8's or is everything they get a 5-6 because they're lazy. I don't know just wondering.
They are the premier third-party grader and have been for decades. You have to assume they have plenty of quality control checks within their system. If they were inconsistent or "played" with the grades to make a point, then they wouldn't be the premier grader for long.
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I highly doubt that card is trimmed, but what is that white mark next to Bench's head? Its not on the other ones pictured in this thread, so its not a cloud.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I would absolutely submit the card under the Express service level. You're telling PSA you know what you have and are willing to pay for it. Putting it in Regular just says I want the higher service but am not willing to pay for it. Hence, why some cards require a few trips to the dentist before the braces get put on. It absolutely amazes me the amount of people that try to get a Ferrari for the cost of a Subaru.
Arthur
I'm not sure it isn't on the card though. I think the case was scratched or something was on the outside of the case
Well to be fair i pegged it at an 8 so that is right at the line of regular in terms of value and I worry about over grading so I thought I was safe at regular but maybe I was so worried about over grading that I under graded so who knows i will try a higher level
Do you honestly believe this makes a difference? I am just curious because I always thought level of service doesn't matter.
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Short answer: yes. Long answer: if it didn't matter, PSA wouldn't have different tiers. Perhaps my reasoning is off but I don't believe my point is. If you believe you have a $10k card, submit it assuming it's a $10k card. If you submit assuming it's a $500 card, don't get pissed when PSA doesn't grade it a $10k card.
Arthur
I have had all levels of service have a card or two come back as minsizerq wasting both of our times and then submitted later 1-2 more times and it holdered. I only have gotten 1 EOT card holdered but haven't had many of those grades given to test out what others have shared enough times.
To the OP, I wouldn't bother going up a higher level fwiw. I think if anything you just rinse and repeat semi-blindly until it holders since you have a provenance to the cards. I have had plenty cards grade higher than the maximum value of the level submitted. If it truly is that much higher they will call you, trust me. If your submission level is sensible for the card in most grades other than 10 or 9 then I would send without thinking further. *I would, however, not recommend submitting obvious cards like Jordan's Rc or something similar at a level trying to cheat the system.
Is there a slight curve in the bottom of the card right under RON? Or is that an optical illusion due to the picture?
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Ralph
I'd guess PSA's response would be that the grader doesn't know what service level the card was submitted under. I know that BGS/BVG claims their grading is done all "blind" like that. Some people take those claims with a grain of salt, but that is at least what they claim.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
What I am seeing just looks like it may just be a bowed card. I've got a few 1964's that are unbelievably bowed and even appear so in a regular top loader(its takes one of those magnetic/screw cases to flatten them out - no creases or ripples once its flattened, though). The top of the Bench(left side) makes it look like that's the case as well. But, like you pointed out, it may be an optical illusion.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
You can always try again but folks on the forum just have a picture experts are impartial. I always knock down the friendly grades in my head to avoid disappointment.
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Still, It should not matter if it is a 52 Topps Mantle or a 87 Topps common. The grade should come back the same no matter what service you asked for. I know that grading is subjective but are you really telling me that if you pay them more they will take their time and do it right or if you pay for a lesser service they will rush it through without a thought?
PSA exercises their right to charge you more if a card is submitted under one service level and the grade pushes it into a higher service level.
OP I think you are going to get the same result either way.
I'll post scans when the card is returned tomorrow from PSA. Cases and pictures (instead of scans) tend to show a lot of optical illusions caused by lights, angle the picture was taken, and scratches /damage to the case. I have 2 of the 1968 Bench Rookies so I'm not even 100% sure that is the one i sent or if it was the other one.
As far as service level I would venture a guess that a higher level would get more experienced graders. I could be completely wrong but that would make sense to me. So what you're paying for is quicker turnaround and a more seasoned grader.
Speaking of turnaround does anyone know if PSA is caught up or are logging times still 2 weeks?
Still two weeks. Def not caught up.
Also, I’m not an expert but i don’t believe service levels result in different people reviewing the cards. I have heard they have specialists for vintage, modern, non-sport, etc....
I for one would not be in favor of this unless you don't care about the value of the cards you are submitting. There are third-rate TPGs out there who already have those kinds of lenient standards. I want my PSA graded cards to retain value because they are the tough graders, not easy ones.
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