Morgan Dollar Reverse Mold

Zoins

I just ran across this which I thought was interesting. The auction description and photo are below. Any thoughts on why this was created and what it was used for?

Old (pre-1930 for sure and probably circa 1880-90s) Morgan Dollar reverse mold. Seems to be copper and steel (or cast iron). These are not common.

TomB

Looks like it was made to produce counterfeit dollars.

BillDugan1959

I have seen a similar "square" set up for fake bust Mexican 8 reales, except the Mexican thingie was complete. Top and bottom was square with obverse and reverse die, and the set was held inside a four-sided square steel "collar" that closely held the two halves with dies.

The height of the steel collar was a little less than the combined height of the two die halves.

Put the three together in the proper order with a blank in the middle, place one side on an anvil and hit the top of the assembly with a sledge hammer.

Capable of a decent strike, might not be as good as what a screw press could do, but who knows.

The thingie I saw was displayed at an ANA summer seminar class in the mid-1990s, which added some credibility - there were some pretty imminent numismatists in attendance at that class, and none objected to the identification as a die set or its purpose.

CaptHenway

I am inclined to go along with the "false die" theory rather than the "casting mold" theory. Notice the number of contact marks in the center of the plain side. These may indicate impact marks from multiple strikings.

ricko

Interesting Item... I likely would buy that if I saw it in an antique shop..... I agree with the above, likely for counterfeit pieces... Cheers, RickO

jonathanb

Looks to me like a printing block for use with ink, nothing nefarious. I’d want to see an angled picture showing depth before I agreed it was used to produce anything coin-like.

CascadeChris

@jonathanb said:
Looks to me like a printing block for use with ink, nothing nefarious. I’d want to see an angled picture showing depth before I agreed it was used to produce anything coin-like.

That was my thought as well. The devices look too shallow. Maybe @dcarr can lend an opinion

sellitstore

If it was used to make cast counterfeits, the lettering and devices would be incuse, not raised, as they appear to be. Printing is a possibility but my guess would be that it was used to manufacture coin glass or something similar.

CaptHenway

@sellitstore said:
If it was used to make cast counterfeits, the lettering and devices would be incuse, not raised, as they appear to be. Printing is a possibility but my guess would be that it was used to manufacture coin glass or something similar.

No, the designs and lettering are incused, not raised. Here's how you can tell. Look at the shadow cast by the base of the block, which we know is raised above the tabletop. The direction of the shadow down and slightly left shows that the light source was above and slightly to the right.

Now look at how the light falls into the letters. In a cavity, the light will illuminate the side AWAY from the light source. Imagine you are standing on the south rim of the Grand Canyon at high noon. The Sun is behind you, to the South, and the North side of the Canyon is fully illuminated. The way these letters are lit up proves that they are incused.

When I started working at Coin World and World Coin News and Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine in 1973 they were still using etched metal printing plates for coins. This is not an etched metal printing plate. Period.

TD

fcloud

@jonathanb said:
Looks to me like a printing block for use with ink, nothing nefarious. I’d want to see an angled picture showing depth before I agreed it was used to produce anything coin-like.

I agree. There was a whole bunch of these type of block around here when Western Publishing left Racine, WI.

BuffaloIronTail

SHEESH.........before I opened this thread I thought it was going to be about mold on a coin.

Pete

Insider2

Nope. Printing block with a raised image. They don't cast coins in wooden molds...except for once! LOL!

1940coupe

Nope not raised and not wood

Insider2

OMG. I guess, never mind... Oh, how I wish I could post what I'm thinking.

Okay, I'll play REALLY nice. What two basic colors do you see in the image?

1940coupe

I asked the seller of this item raised are not made of wood are not will his answer be good for you Mr insider ?https://www.ebay.com/itm/Morgan-Dollar-Reverse-Mold-Neat-Dollar-Mold-Neat-Dollar-Mold/352220340407?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

Insider2

Sorta. While I trust DL this: Morgan Dollar reverse mold. Seems to be copper and steel (or cast iron).

So far, It appears I was wrong.

Sorry, I don't understand what you asked the seller: ** I asked the seller of this item raised are not made of wood.**

Thanks for the link. I've contacted him myself.

CaptHenway

@CaptHenway said:

@sellitstore said:
If it was used to make cast counterfeits, the lettering and devices would be incuse, not raised, as they appear to be. Printing is a possibility but my guess would be that it was used to manufacture coin glass or something similar.

No, the designs and lettering are incused, not raised. Here's how you can tell. Look at the shadow cast by the base of the block, which we know is raised above the tabletop. The direction of the shadow down and slightly left shows that the light source was above and slightly to the right.

Now look at how the light falls into the letters. In a cavity, the light will illuminate the side AWAY from the light source. Imagine you are standing on the south rim of the Grand Canyon at high noon. The Sun is behind you, to the South, and the North side of the Canyon is fully illuminated. The way these letters are lit up proves that they are incused.

When I started working at Coin World and World Coin News and Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine in 1973 they were still using etched metal printing plates for coins. This is not an etched metal printing plate. Period.

TD

Repeated for the benefit of the unattentative.

Insider2

@CaptHenway said: "Repeated for the benefit of the unattentative.""

And for those who disagreed? LOL.

TheRegulator

Definitely looks like a printing block. A few years ago, I think there was a board member (MadMarty?) who posted a number of Red Book printing blocks that looked very similar.

Insider2

I'm waiting to get DLRC to answer my Ebay questions. Hommey don't play "looks like."

RogerB

The description and item data are so paltry that it makes me suspicious of the seller's knowledge of this and similar items. Even such basic things as dimensions are missing.

Not up to John F. or DLRC standards.

Without better information, bidding would be very problematical.

JBK

I like the suggestion that it was for glass. Coin designs pressed into glassware were popular at one time.

Unlikely for metal casting based on format, and I don't see how that piece could be used as a die under tons of pressure.

Insider2

I logged on EBAY to buy it just to prove what it was made from but that thing is so over-priced I had to laugh. Some "sucker" is going to get hung out to dry. LOL. Not even worth $40 in my book!

dcarr

@CascadeChris said:

@jonathanb said:
Looks to me like a printing block for use with ink, nothing nefarious. I’d want to see an angled picture showing depth before I agreed it was used to produce anything coin-like.

That was my thought as well. The devices look too shallow. Maybe @dcarr can lend an opinion

It appears to me to be a mold, possibly made of iron. It could have been used to make copper (silver plated) and/or lead cast counterfeits. The lettering is incuse like on a die. What makes me think it is a mold (half of a mold, actually) is the two holes located NE and SW from the center. These holes look like they were later welded up for some reason. A 2-piece mold would need guide pins to align the two halves. And that is what the holes were for.

CaptHenway

I don't think that the guide holes were welded shut. I think they had iron pins in them that rusted badly.

Zoins

It's no longer available. Anyone here pick it up?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Morgan-Dollar-Reverse-Mold-Neat-Dollar-Mold-Neat-Dollar-Mold/391960714770

This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.

Insider2

The seller wrote to me that it was metal, not wood. Perhaps he changed his opinion and withdrew the printing block?

CaptHenway

Not a printing block.

JBatDavidLawrence

I'm a little late to the thread, but it's not wood nor a printing block. I actually bought it from John Kraljevich and he used something close to this description: "Old (pre-1930 for sure and probably circa 1880-90s) Morgan Dollar reverse mold. Seems to be copper and steel (or cast iron). These are not common."

Sorry for the delay in responding to the ebay messages. We try to catch up with those, but if you want immediate answers over the weekend, it's best to email us directly at coins@davidlawrence.com. We answer all of those...

Thanks!