Buffalo Nickel perimeter damage(not counting wheel) opinion
jesbroken
Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
What might have caused this perimeter damage to this 1935 Buffalo Nickel? It appears to me to be previous to the strike, but would like your opinons. It appears under LIBERTY and again just below the feather.
Thanks
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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Need sharper image. The parallel lines appear to be UNDER the feathers and "Liberty" in which case it is not a counting wheel. Oops, you knew that. I just saw "counting wheel damage" and NOT-the-NOT.
Then it is either die polish or lathe marks. I'll guess the latter.
Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but it does appear to be filing on the die. Press operators sometimes used emery sticks to touch up used dies.
There appear to be some of the lines on the 'Y'... but that could be a photographic anomaly... looks to me to be die marks..... Cheers, RickO
In my opinion, those are lathe lines at the feather tip and "under" LIBERTY. I don't see any damage to this coin.
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The coin's not damaged. Looks like it has been re-worked. I agree that the use of emery sticks might be what caused the marks, It's possible that it was touched up after a clash.
Looks like there is a partial feather from the pictures. That might be the clue to a re-work.
Pete
I agree with the above. Die rework
Collector, occasional seller
I think Lathe marks as they are circular (hard to do with an emery stick) and very deep and wide (typical of a coarse file BUT also hard to do in a circular pattern).
Very odd. I've never seen these marks before and I collect this series. I agree they could be construed as lathe marks, but they seem much too large. None the less, they were clearly on the die before the coin was struck.
Shamika and Insider..............I agree with both of you. It was on the die before striking. The question here is what was used at the Mint to make those marks. That I don't know.
Pete
I'm pretty sure these planchets were stamped out rather than parted off on a lathe. So that would rule out lathe lines.
The lines I do see were most certainly there before it was struck.
Sorry, I wasn't there.
I do remember reading they would roll the sheet out to the proper thickness then they would stamp out the planchets. After that they would be put into a tumbler, or some time of hopper, to remove the burrs. Some planchets were also polished. This might be how the the edge caught those circular lines, perhaps being stuck under that wheel.
Nickel is incredibley tough stuff. To part these off on a lathe back then with high speed steel would be a very slow process even for a line of turret lathes. The machinists would be constantly be sharpening their tool bit because like I said, Nickel is a very tough alloy. They wouldn’t be able to keep up with the striking process that went much faster. To part them off on a lathe would be labor intensive compaired to stamping them out. Joe
You have and extremely interesting nickel. I've never seen that characteristic and can only guess. Any lathe marks that "bad" should have been removed BEFORE the working die that struck your coin was made. The circular nature of the lines as well as their depth and with is the unusual characteristic. I should think more would have been found by now. The fact this is not the case indicates a single die and something done while it was in use. The fact that the lines are circular is the monkey wrench.
The 1935 DDR #2 shows those marks (lathe marks IMO) quite clearly on the reverse under FIVE CENTS on early die state coins.
Minor adjustment -
RE: "Press operators sometimes used emery sticks to touch up used dies."
Press operators were never permitted to alter a die. They were not even permitted to set dies in a press. A "die setter" positioned dies in presses. Only a foreman or press-room supervisor or assistant Coiner were permitted to do anything to a die, and a Philadelphia dies in need of repair usually went to one of the "dieskiners" in the Engraving department.
[During and after 1910, the mints added automatic feeders/hoppers to presses along with other operational improvements in anti-clashing technology. From then forward each press operator managed from 2 to 4 presses. Their job was to make sure planchets were feeding properly and check output for irregularities. See From Mint to Mint for photos and descriptions.]
Once again you are assuming that Mint workers follow Mint regulations without fail. I was told about the use of emery sticks by Ed Fleischmann, my mentor at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse. He and James G. Johnson did much to forward the understanding of error and variety coins.
He was told of the emery stick use by a press operator during a visit to one of the Mints. This may have been the same visit where he learned the secret of "machine doubling" from a press operator; I do not know.
On the OP's coin I see the marks as straight enough to be filing marks rather than lathe marks.
TD
Come on! Lathe marks, really? I don’t remember reading anywhere to where the mint ever bought round stock and parted the blanks off with a lathe. Where does this come from? If this has ever happened please do point me in the right direction to read up on the procedure .
Thanks
I could fill this post with "shenanigans", but I won't. My fingers are already tired and I have a headache from all the reading.
Pete
@RogerB made this correction: Only a foreman or press-room supervisor or assistant Coiner were permitted to do anything to a die, and a Philadelphia dies in need of repair usually went to one of the "dieskiners" in the Engraving department.
IMO, no emery board made these **deeply curved"" marks. Bastard file- but **still not curved!"
@crazyhounddog said: "Come on! Lathe marks, really?"
You can read about the operation of a reducing lathe in Roger's book.
@CaptHenway said: "Once again you are assuming that Mint workers follow Mint regulations without fail. I was told about the use of emery sticks by Ed Fleischmann, my mentor at Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse. He and James G. Johnson did much to forward the understanding of error and variety coins."
They certainly did along with several other of their peers including you. What was Natalie's last name? Halpern? She came to mind with Arnold Margolis, and Alan Herbert.
"He was told of the emery stick use by a press operator during a visit to one of the Mints. This may have been the same visit where he learned the secret of "machine doubling" from a press operator; I do not know. On the OP's coin I see the marks as straight enough to be filing marks rather than lathe marks."
The marks look curved to me and That would be one very, rough strip of emery.
BTW, I didn't know machine doubling was a secret. I first learned about "ejection doubling" in 1972 during a class taught by the first Director of the ANA Certification Service (Hoskins) who was a former Mint employee. Ed had to know about it much earlier than I.
I am fairly certain that the lathe marks, if that is what they are called, are on the "die" which transferred them to the "coin".
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I can agree with that but not parting off each blank with a lathe. The shavings would be as much as the blank. It would be labor intensive for sure! The planchets were stamped out from a rolled sheet. I’d like to read about the lathe process parting off the planchets.
@crazyhounddog said: "I’d like to read about the lathe process parting off the planchets."
AFAIK, You are the one who associated opinions about lathe marks to parting off on planchets. I don't even know what "parting off" on a planchet means.
As I understand the minting process, once a blank is made, it goes to the upset mill to turn it into a planchet. Now, I can see where heavy usage could possibly have produced grooves in the "bed" of that mill. These may - NOPE! That can't produce raised lines like these on a struck coin. Those marks were incuse on the die. They have absolutely nothing to do with the planchets.
Whatever you want to call 'em.........and that's the rub..........(no pun intended)......they were there on the die when the coin was struck.
Strange things happen at The Mint sometimes.....................
Pete
Lathe marks on the die, okay, we agree.
@BuffaloIronTail said: "Whatever you want to call 'em.........and that's the rub..........(no pun intended)......they were there on the die when the coin was struck."
So Pete, I guess you are in agreement with the first FOUR POSTERS on this thread.
@crazyhounddog said: "Lathe marks on the die, okay, we agree."
I won't go that far...LOL. I don't recall ever seeing anything like this on a coin. Lathe lines are the simplest explanation for what I'm seeing (depth, thickness, curvature, on the die face only). Very neat coin!
Unfortunately, the coin sold before I bid on it,
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
That's too bad. Probably someone we know bought it. If I knew it was on Ebay, I
should have too! Snooze you lose. 
I received some good advice from an old collector. If you see something you have never seen before in a field that you are very familiar with, you probably should buy it! Same goes for coins in unusual condition.
Thanks for re-running the pictures like this. I had previously been looking on my cell phone, and had completely missed the lines through LIBERTY. They are indeed curved, and I withdraw the suggestion that they were emery stick file marks.
TD
See the 1917-D posted by DoughDeo on the 1911-D thread by EagleEye for similar appearance behind the bust.
OK Roger........I clipped these two pics from the Eagle Eye post.
Same type of tooling............wouldn't you all say?
Pete
Yes but on the Buff it appears more circular and close to the rim. I don't know what that means, if anything.
Absolutely not. Ah, just my opinion.
Just posted a theory in the other thread.
Are the marks from "tooling" or something else?
Roger,
Would you know anyone at one of the mints that might shed light on this matter? While several theories have been postulated, it would interest me to find out not only how but why this occurred.
Thanks
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Actually it's Die #3, not #2. Anyhow I'd love to know the correct answer as to what those marks are.
A bunch of examples will be needed. Enough "critical mass" is necessary to get anyone to put the time into it.
Roger,
I apologize for my reply in the Lincoln thread as I didn’t have the full context of this thread in mind when I posted.
I am going to butcher this explanation, but I know as a variety collector that often later die states will show more detail than an earlier one. As the die ages, details which were polished away will re-emerge due to small differences in the hardness of the material where it was compressed by a punch or a hub. I can post some pictures later today to show what I mean.
Both the Buffalo and the Lincoln dies are very worn, is it possible that lathe or file marks which were polished off the die when new are being revealing due to inconsistent wear?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor