Is this Buff ruined? (Results are in)
ChrisH821
Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have an otherwise beutiful 13-D T1 buff that has a couple spots on the reverse. Not sure if they are carbon spots or if they can be removed. It has been in acetone which didn't seem to do anything to them. Any thoughts/ideas here?
Collector, occasional seller
5
Comments
It looks like it's corrosion and has eaten into the metal.
That's what I am seeing.
The coin can be "fixed." This one I should send to one of the second tier services offering free conservation. The only spot that "may" turn gray is under the belly. The others will disappear completely.
That is a lovely Buff... certainly the spots are bothersome... and conservation may help.... sure worth a try... Cheers, RickO
I would say at this point in time it's not ruined.
Most 13-d’s come well struck but I gotta say that one your showing has a serious strike, needle sharp and hammered .
Very nice piece spot or no spot.
Like Joe says-that one is ALL there! It's hard to tell about the spots-a quick dip in one of coin cleaners might make them go away.
The coin reminds me of an early strike off new dies - quite possible in 1913.
The black spots look like particulate contamination and a good conservation service should be able to lessen their appearance and stabilize the surfaces. My suggestion is to "not go cheap" on this - you have a coin with exceptional appearance, why risk it?
ICGFP but it looks like a strong 66. They don't come better made
In this instance, its great skin can afford to lose some molecules and maintain a good sheen. But, if needed, acid doesn't come up until Step 4..
My half-blind guess is strongly optimistic, but I share @Insider2's reservation on the one below the belly leaving a shadow,
And, also, @RogerB 's caution that it's too nice and too valuable to be handled by anyone but a pro.
I think it is as nice a 13 d as I have seen. Hopefully PCGS will be able to conserve it to prevent further damage to the coin. Well worth the expense in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I don't know if it's the lighting, but that Buffalo Nickel looks like a medal strike with those deep fields and high devices.
That Buff looks outstanding.
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice here! I am in agreement that this isn't one that I want to "go it alone" on, far too nice to risk a botched job.
Collector, occasional seller
Well, we all see the before images. I bet I know what the "after" is going to look like.
Hopefully, when it is cleaned by the "professionals" (?) it will "pop" after its "skin" is completely stripped away. Good luck!
In case you cannot tell, IMHO, besides the very excellent "coin doctors" in the country, there are only two guys working at a TPGS conservation service that I should allow near that coin if I owned it.
I would just leave it as it is. Nice in its own right
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
IMO, that's a permanent spot.
IF my experience with conservation is any indication.
IMHO, the coin can be improved (by the right people) and no one will be the wiser.
If less experienced people try to improve it, the coin will be ruined. So do some research, or leave it alone.
@topstuf I have had the same experience with a gem + Buffalo that is so well struck dealers think it is a proof. One tiny spot keeps reappearing in the field every 6 -7 years.
I'm on the fence as to whether the spots can be fully removed. My personal experience says no. But @Insider2 has some great contacts in the business and you might PM him.
I think if it were sent to PCGS for conservation it might very well be treated with eZest or a similar acid, which will strip any acquired toning. At best it would come back bright white without spots. And at worst, a dull grey with the spots barely reduced. Risky.
Lance.
I dislike the word 'ruined' in connection with coins. "Worth Less" does not equate to "Worthless".
That's a nice coin, amazing strike. The spots will be reduced in severity with expert conservation. Even if not completely removed, it will look better.
Amateurish attempts at cleaning will "ruin" it as far as a straight grade is concerned, that is true.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
That's a really nice coin, even with the spots. It's certainly worthy of a conservation attempt if the experts determine it can be done.
I see several spots on the coin. IMO, Just about anything that is done by a professional will improve the coin. However, It should be virtually impossible to just remove the spot as that will leave an etched surface with a different color than the coin has now.
I've heard that nickel is very hard to work with (copper is impossible!). Unless the spot is the typical soft green deposit found on copper, this type of corrosion on nickel will "eat" the original mint luster. Apparently, most folks "work" the spot and then brighten the entire coin. On a coin like this, it is probably the best way to hide the "conservation." This coin looks like it will "pop" with luster if that method is chosen.
The coin is currently in professional hands.
Collector, occasional seller
Be sure to show us the after photos. Good luck.
Look forward to after photo's and who did you send it to? Thanks
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Send it to me. I will appreciate it just as it is.
Cheers
Bob
Based on some helpful advice, I sent it to ICG and Skip Fazzari did the work. The spots are removed! As soon as I get it back I'll post the after pictures.
Collector, occasional seller
Yes, I will take it off your hands
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Struggling with my lighting here.
The spot under the belly left a very slight shadow. Many thanks to Mr. Fazzari for the time put in to remove the spots!
This currently resides in an ICG 65 holder.
Collector, occasional seller
Sure looks like a 66! I'll bet the graders saw the coin when it had all those corrosion spots and that influenced their final grade. After some time passes, I should crack it and send it to our host "raw." Everyone here likes the coin so you have a good shot. If it comes back as a 65 from PCGS, you made money, If they '4 it, return it to ICG. If they six it ... you did the right thing and it was almost free.
It has half a dozen bag marks that will keep it from 66.
Interesting discussion ... irrespective of the coin. A very nice coin with an unfortunate spot of corrosion. Such is numismatic life. Remove the corrosion to stop the persistent damage ... that makes sense. The coin now has a "shallow" where the corrosion was located and is now in a "problem free" holder as a "gem" specimen. Uh ... something sounds amiss.
So many here rail against coin doctors for altering a coin's surface to hide or remove a problem and sell the coin without disclosing the "operation." One "high end" respected dealer has even made eliminating coin doctoring her's numismatic life's passion ... with near giddy accolades from many folks here.
Which leads me to ask for your help ... help me understand how what has been done to this Buffalo nickel is not coin doctoring. And if it is an example of coin doctoring ... why is it okay not to disclose or even try to get the coin graded higher? [I mean no disrespect to this coin or its owner ... it's an honest question.]
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
in response to astrorat above- I think coin collectors draw a correlation about coin doctors as they relate to medical doctors. Someone practicing medicine on their own with no training would go to jail. Those who have proven their competency and ethics to their peers get a degree to hang on the wall.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I'm not sure what you mean by "shallow", I said "shadow" in my post if that's what you were quoting- maybe not the best term... the spot had slightly etched the surface of the coin. I wouldn't consider removing foreign material which would continue to deteriorate a coin "doctoring". I didn't trust myself to remove it without screwing it up so I sent it to someone who's been doing this longer than I've been alive. There was no surface alteration here, no metal movement, and the coin was not even dipped. I guess it all depends on what you consider "doctoring", I wouldn't consider this to be since the underlying surface of the coin was not modified. Now, if the spot was removed followed by a "spot whiz" to restore luster, that would most certainly be doctoring.
Here is a shot with a different light angle to show that there is a remnant, this is much more acceptable than that blob that was stuck on there.
Edit: If I was selling this coin online I would make sure to show this.
Collector, occasional seller
@ChrisH821
Thanks for the clarification. I misread your post and thought you wrote "shallow" (rather than "shadow") which I interpreted as a removal of metal. My mistake.
The close-up image is meaningful and indicates (to my eyes) that something was removed from the surface rather than part of the surface was removed.
Thanks for correcting my mistake.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@astrorat No problem, thanks for questioning it! I understand your concern.
Collector, occasional seller
What an improvement! Yes a gorgeous well struck type 1 for sure.
Super nice !
Interesting opinion coming from IMHO a very uninformed poster. Let me post some questions to any "pure-at-heart-goodie-two-shoes" who might agree with this nonsense:
Have you ever dipped a coin? Oops...you are a coin doctor!
Have you ever rubbed the surface of a coin? Oops...ditto.
Have you ever put any kind of chemical on a coin? Oops...you are a coin doctor.
Have you ever picked off some dirt or brushed a coin to restore/improve its surface? Oops...ditto.
Thankfully, I don't expect any of the coin doctors (99.9% of you) to respond to this NONSENSE that has been posted. That includes any of the coin doctors working at the TPGS conservation services. I posted earlier that there were only a few folks I should let touch that coin. It appears the OP found one of them.
BTW @astrorat I assure you that if Mr. Fazzari OR any competent coin doctor wanted to remove the tiny etched spot REMAINING on the coin they could have done it VERY EASILY! ** Fazzari conserved the coin.** If he were a "coin doctor" as you have implied, HE WOULD HAVE EASILY REMOVED IT COMPLETELY! See the difference?
PS IMHO, it is a shame he didn't "doctor" the spot. You would have never known!
All the sarcastic sacrasm put aside, looks real nice and a true keeper for sure. Don't let others bring you down. Indian had his head held high!
@Insider2
Thanks for your biting commentary. Based on our prior PM interactions, I am somewhat taken aback ... but such is life. Maybe you are just having a bad day.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I have a reputation as one of the Curmudgeons on the public side to protect.
The opinion you have posted is probably believed by 99% of novices and 75% of the long-time collectors who read it. I know I don't need to tell you this but when anyone "conserves" a coin it can be said that they are cleaning it or altering it. Before your time, it was taught that you could do anything to a coin (proper cleaning for example) and if no one could tell...no harm done! I have seen some amazing repairs and lasered coins in my time but so far, close attention coupled with a stereo microscope and fluorescent light is the great equalizer!
Another informative and educational thread.
Looks good.
I have nothing against ICG, in fact I like them, but I cracked this one out to send to our hosts. I wanted to see what they thought in comparison to ICG, they graded it MS66.
Collector, occasional seller
I'm in the minority here but I liked the "before" better. The skin was pretty sweet looking.
It still has it, it is a gorgeous coin and wasn't harmed in the conservation. The light was different and I was struggling to get a good pic through the slab in the last set. I'll update with the Trueview once it's up.
Collector, occasional seller
That coin is very deserving of the PCGS 66.
Heck of a strike on a hard metal
Congrats ! ! !
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Fine coins like fine guns should be conserved not doctored. Don't let just any ham fisted clod touch either. That coin was properly conserved and better for it. Good job and nice coin.
I agree, In the good 'ol days, the etched surface of the spot would have also been fixed.
IMHO, no one would have ever detected it - even with a microscope UNLESS they were told the area where to look and what type of light to use. Then they would have a 50/50 chance of seeing it.
TV posted!
Collector, occasional seller
Nice, and compared to the thru-slab shot it retains that beautiful skin.
Great coin and nice result.
That said, reading this thread clarifies for me with whom I would prefer to share a beer and precious time. As mentioned in another thread, I'm already full up on vitriol.
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