Help IDing a Rare Mantle

1951WheatiesPremium

This image is fairly common; it was used for a few items: 1958 Holiday Inn Photo, a 1958 Holiday Inn Postcard, the rare Newark Youth Day issue. And yet, this is a completely legitimate item that is none of those 3. EDIT: I HAVE posted a better photo...

I have heard it referred to as the 'Holiday Inn Proof' but I'm fairly certain that it came as a mail in offer from the Yankees. I haven't seen too many but I don't know what it's catalogued as so I don't know if PSA grades it. I did check the Mickey Mantle Master Registry set checklist and album but didn't see it listed or pictured. Any help is greatly appreciated.

JoeBanzai

Good luck, I have at least 6 Harmon Killebrew 4x5's and 5x7's that PSA won't grade.

So much stuff was issued and a lot of it isn't cataloged, or properly cataloged. On one of my Killebrew team issued 4x5's is from 1959 (I think), the Standard Catalog lists them, but Killebrew isn't listed as one of the players. The catalog goes on to say the checklist is most likely incomplete. I tried to convince PSA that as their big rookie home run hitter Killebrew would have been included in the set, but they would not grade it.

To be honest, I don't know when most of my "oddball" photos were issued. I picked them up over the years at various card shows if I thought they were something I didn't have.

KbKards

The item lacks the detail of how it would have been originally printed. If you look at the picture quality and signature it's just as modern printed copy.

1951WheatiesPremium

@KbKards said:
The item lacks the detail of how it would have been originally printed. If you look at the picture quality and signature it's just as modern printed copy.

Agreed - that picture is likely a reprint. I just wanted a clear image of it to be used as an example of what it looks like. The one I have is not a reprint (I don't think); I will scan mine and post it over the next few days.

I have seen a few before but not that many.

KendallCat

Not only is it a reprint but that signature looks nothing like his signature. I have several items signed by Mantle and were done in person, and his signature does not slant and the M's match up shape and size wise - in this photo they don't match up.

KC

1951WheatiesPremium

Here's two PSA graded versions (cut and pasted from google):

1951WheatiesPremium

Here's the scan - it is a 5x7 photograph, definitely from the Yankees and postmarked from 1957. I have seen a few over the years, just never knew what it was called...and still don't.

1951WheatiesPremium

Anyone else have one?

I bought it from an older gentleman. He had ordered it from the Yankees in 1957 having requested an autograph after the Triple Crown season of '56. Obviously these were available at Holiday Inn, slightly altered, as of 1958. His name on the PayPal statement is the same as on the envelope from the Yankees - not ironclad proof but certainly very encouraging and somewhat helpful.

Cool piece - would love more info from any of our knowledgable board members.

1951WheatiesPremium

@KendallCat said:
Not only is it a reprint but that signature looks nothing like his signature. I have several items signed by Mantle and were done in person, and his signature does not slant and the M's match up shape and size wise - in this photo they don't match up.

KC

For what it's worth, the signature is 100% facsimile on my photo. I also have the Holiday Inn photo and it has the same 'signature' on it, too. While both are identical signatures, I would hazard a guess that the original used to produce these featured a 'clubhouse' or 'secretarial' autograph; quite a common practice that goes back at least as far as Babe Ruth.

1951WheatiesPremium

@KendallCat said:
Not only is it a reprint but that signature looks nothing like his signature. I have several items signed by Mantle and were done in person, and his signature does not slant and the M's match up shape and size wise - in this photo they don't match up.

>

Just for the record, I am a collector not a dealer. My posts are not designed to elicits bids or generate sales. I like hunting for rare items and I have a pretty nice little collection. Because I also LOVE to write, this forum is where I 'warm up', so to speak. In addition, I know that my best bet is to try to share information I have with others honestly and hope they do the same.

As for the 'autograph', everyone should recognize that variation in a signature is likely over time. Consider that the same guy signing 50 balls on the way to a bus at 25, signing at card shows untimed for pay in his 50s and then signing while out to dinner.

Those three signatures ar going to have slight differences - no matter who it is. Mickey's signature evolved considerably over the years. From childish to his eventual sublime and artistic one that endures...

1951WheatiesPremium

I am happy to provide the photos if needed but a quick google search of any 1951 team signed ball, his 1952 Topps card or anything else signed early in his career will show you that at that time his signature looks childish. I KNOW THE signature on all three is facsimile (it's printed right on there) just as its fake on the 1952 Topps and Mission Soda. That said, its certainly possible the Holiday Inn stuff and my 1957 photo were copies of his actual signature. It almost looks like the evolutionary link between his rookie sig and the ornate one we all recognize today.

1951WheatiesPremium

Helpful for curious folks:

https://www.psacard.com/autographfacts/baseball/mickey-mantle/29

1951WheatiesPremium

I can also take a photo of my 1951 WS Black Bat, as a frame of reference for what his rookie signature looked like - if anyone wants to see it...

countdouglas

I don't collect autographs at all, but have a few that have found their way into my possession by various means over the years, just because...

For awhile, handwriting analysis was of a bit of interest to me, so I'd read up on the various methods of authenticating, including some books that had photographs of multiple celebrity autographs for comparison. While I understand there are some obvious tells, I am unconvinced that there is any way to be 100 percent certain that any one autograph is the real deal. I, myself, have a few versions of my own signature, depending on the significance of what and why I'm signing. And if I'm signing multiple times one after another, even those will look different.

If I remember correctly, didn't Mantle's signature early in his career feature pointy "M"s?

And I believe there was a period of time when Ted Williams would sign his name with quotation marks before Ted and after Williams, and other times, not? Anyone know anything about that? I've always wondered if it was because someone was faking his autograph with his permission, and putting the quote marks there to kind of let you in on the joke...

1951WheatiesPremium

These signatures were already on file from the player to be printed on their custom bats made by H&B, the company which makes the Louisville Slugger. This tradition of players having their signature on their bat continues to this day. Players who were not under contract have their names in block letters. World Series 'Black Bats' (which were originally brown) date back to the thirties - the more modern winners have production run numbers, the older ones don't. In essence, they made an estimated 250-500 (approximately) for each of the World Series teams - winner and runner up - as a sort of trophy for the team, coaches, front office and owners. Similar to how World Series rings get distributed, in a way. Louisville Slugger still does it, too. Making this another interesting little niche area of collectibles.

The point is when Louisville Slugger asked Mickey for the signature that he wanted on his bat, that's what he gave them before the season in 1951. And it looks NOTHING like his signature would come to look later on.

cpettimd

The 1958 Holiday Inn postcard PSA 5 was originally mine- I submitted it to PSA and is was a pop 1 at the time- I sold it to Levi 707- they may have changed the designation after that because i recall see a different label on the same item years later

KendallCat

I looked at this again and it appears Mantle changed his sig at some point from a tilted or slightly slanted one early in his career to the one later in his career and during his autograph days where the "M's" in his first and last names were lower and wider.

SmithAuctionCo

Typically it is just referred to as a "Team-Issue" as it came directly from the Yankees. Since it is postmarked with a year, PSA should be able to slab it as a "team-issued photo" from 1957.

And as far as Mantle's autograph, his signature changed multiple times over the years (as just about everyone's signature does). The common signature seen with the half moon "M"s started in the 1960s. This article details his early signature styles a bit - http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/mickey-mantle-autographs-forgeries/

1951WheatiesPremium

@SmithAuctionCo

Agreed. Only thing is, most of the 'team issue' items were sets on paper stock and captioned. The ones that look like Jay Publishing. I get the sense that this item was sent out to deal with the massive increase in requests that came for Mickey's autograph specifically in 1957 after he won the Triple Crown in 1956. The guy I got it from is a lifelong Dodger fan from California and said he got it that way. Made sure I knew that he wasn't a Yankee fan, too; he just liked Mickey and wanted Mickeys autograph.

You can't totally tell in the scan but it's a legitimate photograph - like a grade school picture - on photo stock with a signature that to an adult is an obvious facsimile but to a kid...

I appreciate all the input so far.