@pitboss said:
If they do sign him he will be the 2nd coming of Tom Brady! He is that good but the Patriots could not wait that long to hold on to him.
You don't need to tell me,i'm a Pats fan. I was really really hoping they could find a way to make it happen even if it meant tagging him as the backup,which is crazy i know lol. If given the choice though,i wanted Brady to finish out his career here for as long as he can play.
I personally have ZERO issue with them changing the rules. In the meantime they can only enforce the rules on the books.
The "fumbling" through there end zone while trying to score a touchdown in my opinion is the worst. If you fumble out of bounds at the one inch line you remain the ball. If it's an inch further you lose the ball to the defensive. Too stiff of a price to pay. Why not just give it back to the offense at the 20?
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Brick is right. And Marks' rules post even says "In the process of attempting to secure possession".
He wasn't attempting to secure possession, he already caught the ball standing up, he didn't dive
until the ball was already secure. Therefore he was now a runner, and the ground can't cause a fumble.
In other words, the receiving part of the play was over when he caught it, as he was not falling down
at the time and the ball no longer had to survive the ground.
At any rate, the rule needs to be changed. How many thousands of times in the history of football,
pros, college, high school, has a play like that been called a touchdown.
Wrong. Brick isn't right. You just happen to agree with him ; )
It wasn't a fumble. It just wasn't a catch. The rule was correctly interpreted.
1) If you’re going to the ground you have to hold onto the ball when the ball hits the ground…Going to the ground trumps lunging/reaching to try and get extra yards or score a TD.
2) the second the ball touched the ball and began to rotate the catch was not completed
3) Dez Bryant probably doesn't agree either
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
its not the leagues fault its just that we can't go back to taking an on field officials word for it in any sport. It's because of technology , in the old days before HD tv with crystal clear slo-mo replays and giant jumbotron screens in the stadiums no one had the ability to second guess any of this crap. A play would happen a call was made and life went on.
Now the broadcast shows 5 different angles right away , the fans at the game see the same replays . Then 10 million idiots on twitter and facebook and espn and the pcgs coin forum endlessly discuss the minute details of every play for weeks after. The league feels like it has to take the judgement out of the call so thats what they are doing because they don't like the after the fact criticism
The truth is none of it matters , touchdown or fumble . If your side gets screwed you will get gifted next week. Its only sports who cares . Most teams are about even bad calls vs good. Well maybe the lions aren't.
If you think the ball EVER hit the ground then the following should suffice. If you think the ball never hit the ground, well get a better TV. If you still think they got the call wrong after reading this then you are interpreting the rules with your own spin on it. Just breaking the plane of the goal line doesn't cut it here.
“Roethlisberger completes a pass to James, and James is going to the ground as he reaches the goal line,” Riveron said. “That’s the key here. He is going to the ground. By rule, to complete the process of the catch, he must survive the ground. By that, we mean he must maintain control of the football. . . . He does put the ball over the goal line extended. Once he gets there, he loses control of the football, and then the ball hits the ground. . . . So therefore, two things occur: He loses control of the football, and the ball touches the ground prior to him regaining control. Therefore, the ruling on the field of a touchdown was changed to an incomplete pass.”
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I haven't watched a game all year. rules such as what apply to this is what have driven me away over the last 5-10 years, it's just hard to figure out what's really going on, what is allowed and what some things mean that the Officials are ruling on.
I didn't see the play but that doesn't really matter, I doubt that the Officials who ruled on it actually saw it. the replays were very revealing so I'll tell you what I saw.
1.) the receiver appeared to catch and control the ball.
2.) one foot came down.
3.) his knee touched the ground.
4.) he made a "football move" to get the ball over the goal line.
5.) with his hand holding and controlling the ball, it came lose when the ball hit the ground.
--- my initial thought was that he was either down short of the goal line when his knee touched or it was a touchdown when the ball crossed the goal line.
--- I have never really understood the "football move" terminology, it seems that it's something left to the officials to determine. watching that play over ad nauseum it appeared to me that he caught the ball, had control of the ball and then did something in an attempt to advance the ball.
--- I always hear the ruling that "the ground can't cause a fumble" but apparently it can if the circumstances are right.
this is one of those really weird plays that, much to the consternation of the NFL, happened during the wrong game at exactly the perfect time. it is really quite astonishing that it involves New England. the Patriots had nothing to do with what happened yet are still involved in something that will be talked about by us and almost certainly the Rules Committee after the season ends.
I think they have to consider and resolve some real basic rules and terminology.
1.) when is it clear that a player controls the ball??
2.) what exactly is a "football move" and should that terminology even be in the rules??
3.) when is a player actually down??
4.) there are too many instances where a "RULE" means different things.
Wow, how can fans not see that James was falling to the ground as he was trying to catch the ball? He never even had his feet directly under him. It is crystal clear, the goal line is meaningless in this scenario per NFL rules since James was falling to the ground while trying to catch the ball. Football move is meaningless since James was falling to the ground while trying to catch the ball.
Just as the James gets the pass, he is already falling:
Still falling as he attempts to secure the ball:
Now outside of the NFL rules that looks like a catch with a lunge to the end zone to me but the rules about controlling the ball as you are falling to the ground for a pass are crystal clear. The rule actually makes sense because it takes subjectivity out of it, if you are falling then you have to maintain control. Simple enough. You would have a lot more arguments if they brought subjectivity into the play.
Anyway the Steelers had multiple other shots at the end zone after that play. Take care of business and the drop by James doesn't matter.
@Dave99B said:
Caught it, knee down, made a football move, and broke the plain of the end zone. TD. Refs make mistakes too. Oh well, great game!!!
Dave
Actually that's not considered a touchdown as he didn't control the ball to the ground. You guys continue to ignore the obvious.
Let Eli explain it to you. He knows the rules better:
Like others, as it happened Manning thought it was a clean catch. But on replay, he saw that it wasn’t.
“I was watching the game live, you see it, and it doesn’t look like an incompletion at all,’’ Manning said. “Once they slow it down and see him going to the ground and the ball hitting the ground, incompletion …
“You hate it, when you’re watching it live, you don’t even think about that not being a catch. When they run it down, hey, when you go to the ground you got to finish with the ball in your hand. When it hits the ground and there’s movement, I was like, ‘I think that’s enough evidence where they’re gonna reverse that’.”
It’s so clear to Manning, he doesn’t understand why others are confused as to what constitutes a catch in the NFL
“I think it is clear what a catch is,’’ Manning said. “Especially when you’re going to the ground, you got to control the ball the whole time. You got to have it. If the ball hits the ground, you’re going to the ground, the ball moves or hits the ground and there’s a little loss of contact through the end of the play, it’s gonna be an incompletion.’’
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If anyone can’t see the ball clearly did hit the ground along with the TE left hand facing the opposite side of the ball clearly showing he didn’t have complete possession while the ball hit the ground is seeing what they want to see. I completely agree it should have been a TD when the ball crossed the the plane however the rule was followed and believe me the NFL wanted the Pats to lose, but the refs did their job.
@perkdog said:
If anyone can’t see the ball clearly did hit the ground along with the TE left hand facing the opposite side of the ball clearly showing he didn’t have complete possession while the ball hit the ground is seeing what they want to see. I completely agree it should have been a TD when the ball crossed the the plane however the rule was followed and believe me the NFL wanted the Pats to lose, but the refs did their job.
Perkdog - you are missing the point. The ball crossing the plane does not matter here. He has to complete the catch. And did not by rule. If he was a runner it would be a TD.
Why go by that? I said It’s my opinion I didn’t say it was the wrong call. I think the rule should be changed and I believe I’m not in the minority in thinking that
@perkdog said:
Why go by that? I said It’s my opinion I didn’t say it was the wrong call. I think the rule should be changed and I believe I’m not in the minority in thinking that
No argument here. As long as the rule is in place......the player needs to make possession top priority....not trying for more yards or a TD. Case in point....in the Oakland/Dallas game. If Carr would have held onto the ball instead of holding it out and losing it.......the ball would be on the 1 yard line and Oakland still has the ball and kick a FG and go into OT. To me you have to think within the rules and do what is best for the team.......NOT making a heroic play that could cost you the game.
Jimmy G mic'd up on the game winning drive vs the Titans. This kid is legit & learned from the best the past three & a half years. Gonna be watching a ton of 49ers games in the coming years. Hard to believe he was this poised in his 5th NFL start while Roethlisberger's got 2 SB rings and blew the game on sunday night in this same situation needing to clock it for a FG. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jimmy-garoppolos-miced-clip-two-minute-drill-amazing-160611735.html
Roethlisberger has led quite a few 4th quarter come from behind drives in his career and in big games, too. Jimmy G's come from behind win vs Tennessee was impressive but Gould deserves a lot of credit for nailing that 54-yard FG, too. I like what I see from Garappolo thus far but let's see how he fares once teams get some more tape on him before we start comparing him to a QB like Roethlisberger.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Oh definitely but i'm just saying had you watched those two QBs for the first time on sunday,you would think the roles would have been reversed with one guy making his 5th start & the other his 197th start. I'm not a fan of Roesthlisberger the person but as a QB he's an absolute HOF QB imo. After watching the game again and seeing that final play twenty times by now I just think a guy with his pedigree should have taken control of the situation when there was so much confusion there. Maybe Brady has spoiled us Pats fans for so long making it look easy in those moments when its really not.
Not sure why people keep mentioning "football move" over and over. That phrase never appears in the rule. What the rule says is that the player must "clearly establish himself as a runner". Very obviously, Jesse James did not do that. As fergie23 posted, James never had his feet under him, never regained his balance, was never upright, was never in a position to dodge anyone - all things we associate with being a runner.
Personally, I love the rule. It removes pretty much all subjectivity.
Aside from the TD called back and following INT what I find funny that nobody is talking about is during the review of the James TD what was Big Ben doing? He literally was down on one knee praying lol and Tomlin and the rest of the team was walking around like they were waiting on a photo finish at the track, the OC, WR’s and Tomlin should have been thinking about what to do if that play was reversed, maybe Ben wouldn’t have been so frazzled and came up with a better play that throwing it in the middle of the end zone with Pats players all over his intended receiver! That right there is what separates Belichek and Brady from the rest of the league.
@perkdog said:
Aside from the TD called back and following INT what I find funny that nobody is talking about is during the review of the James TD what was Big Ben doing? He literally was down on one knee praying lol and Tomlin and the rest of the team was walking around like they were waiting on a photo finish at the track, the OC, WR’s and Tomlin should have been thinking about what to do if that play was reversed, maybe Ben wouldn’t have been so frazzled and came up with a better play that throwing it in the middle of the end zone with Pats players all over his intended receiver! That right there is what separates Belichek and Brady from the rest of the league.
I totally agree. I know a lot of Steeler fans don't care for Tomlin.
@perkdog said:
Aside from the TD called back and following INT what I find funny that nobody is talking about is during the review of the James TD what was Big Ben doing? He literally was down on one knee praying lol and Tomlin and the rest of the team was walking around like they were waiting on a photo finish at the track, the OC, WR’s and Tomlin should have been thinking about what to do if that play was reversed, maybe Ben wouldn’t have been so frazzled and came up with a better play that throwing it in the middle of the end zone with Pats players all over his intended receiver! That right there is what separates Belichek and Brady from the rest of the league.
I totally agree. I know a lot of Steeler fans don't care for Tomlin.
Its because He's not a good coach. He has been holding back the team for years.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Comments
You don't need to tell me,i'm a Pats fan. I was really really hoping they could find a way to make it happen even if it meant tagging him as the backup,which is crazy i know lol. If given the choice though,i wanted Brady to finish out his career here for as long as he can play.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I personally have ZERO issue with them changing the rules. In the meantime they can only enforce the rules on the books.
The "fumbling" through there end zone while trying to score a touchdown in my opinion is the worst. If you fumble out of bounds at the one inch line you remain the ball. If it's an inch further you lose the ball to the defensive. Too stiff of a price to pay. Why not just give it back to the offense at the 20?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Brick is right. And Marks' rules post even says "In the process of attempting to secure possession".
He wasn't attempting to secure possession, he already caught the ball standing up, he didn't dive
until the ball was already secure. Therefore he was now a runner, and the ground can't cause a fumble.
In other words, the receiving part of the play was over when he caught it, as he was not falling down
at the time and the ball no longer had to survive the ground.
At any rate, the rule needs to be changed. How many thousands of times in the history of football,
pros, college, high school, has a play like that been called a touchdown.
Wrong. Brick isn't right. You just happen to agree with him ; )
It wasn't a fumble. It just wasn't a catch. The rule was correctly interpreted.
1) If you’re going to the ground you have to hold onto the ball when the ball hits the ground…Going to the ground trumps lunging/reaching to try and get extra yards or score a TD.
2) the second the ball touched the ball and began to rotate the catch was not completed
3) Dez Bryant probably doesn't agree either
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
its not the leagues fault its just that we can't go back to taking an on field officials word for it in any sport. It's because of technology , in the old days before HD tv with crystal clear slo-mo replays and giant jumbotron screens in the stadiums no one had the ability to second guess any of this crap. A play would happen a call was made and life went on.
Now the broadcast shows 5 different angles right away , the fans at the game see the same replays . Then 10 million idiots on twitter and facebook and espn and the pcgs coin forum endlessly discuss the minute details of every play for weeks after. The league feels like it has to take the judgement out of the call so thats what they are doing because they don't like the after the fact criticism
The truth is none of it matters , touchdown or fumble . If your side gets screwed you will get gifted next week. Its only sports who cares . Most teams are about even bad calls vs good. Well maybe the lions aren't.
If you think the ball EVER hit the ground then the following should suffice. If you think the ball never hit the ground, well get a better TV. If you still think they got the call wrong after reading this then you are interpreting the rules with your own spin on it. Just breaking the plane of the goal line doesn't cut it here.
“Roethlisberger completes a pass to James, and James is going to the ground as he reaches the goal line,” Riveron said. “That’s the key here. He is going to the ground. By rule, to complete the process of the catch, he must survive the ground. By that, we mean he must maintain control of the football. . . . He does put the ball over the goal line extended. Once he gets there, he loses control of the football, and then the ball hits the ground. . . . So therefore, two things occur: He loses control of the football, and the ball touches the ground prior to him regaining control. Therefore, the ruling on the field of a touchdown was changed to an incomplete pass.”
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Caught it, knee down, made a football move, and broke the plain of the end zone. TD. Refs make mistakes too. Oh well, great game!!!
Dave
I haven't watched a game all year. rules such as what apply to this is what have driven me away over the last 5-10 years, it's just hard to figure out what's really going on, what is allowed and what some things mean that the Officials are ruling on.
I didn't see the play but that doesn't really matter, I doubt that the Officials who ruled on it actually saw it. the replays were very revealing so I'll tell you what I saw.
1.) the receiver appeared to catch and control the ball.
2.) one foot came down.
3.) his knee touched the ground.
4.) he made a "football move" to get the ball over the goal line.
5.) with his hand holding and controlling the ball, it came lose when the ball hit the ground.
--- my initial thought was that he was either down short of the goal line when his knee touched or it was a touchdown when the ball crossed the goal line.
--- I have never really understood the "football move" terminology, it seems that it's something left to the officials to determine. watching that play over ad nauseum it appeared to me that he caught the ball, had control of the ball and then did something in an attempt to advance the ball.
--- I always hear the ruling that "the ground can't cause a fumble" but apparently it can if the circumstances are right.
this is one of those really weird plays that, much to the consternation of the NFL, happened during the wrong game at exactly the perfect time. it is really quite astonishing that it involves New England. the Patriots had nothing to do with what happened yet are still involved in something that will be talked about by us and almost certainly the Rules Committee after the season ends.
I think they have to consider and resolve some real basic rules and terminology.
1.) when is it clear that a player controls the ball??
2.) what exactly is a "football move" and should that terminology even be in the rules??
3.) when is a player actually down??
4.) there are too many instances where a "RULE" means different things.
Wow, how can fans not see that James was falling to the ground as he was trying to catch the ball? He never even had his feet directly under him. It is crystal clear, the goal line is meaningless in this scenario per NFL rules since James was falling to the ground while trying to catch the ball. Football move is meaningless since James was falling to the ground while trying to catch the ball.
Just as the James gets the pass, he is already falling:
Still falling as he attempts to secure the ball:
Now outside of the NFL rules that looks like a catch with a lunge to the end zone to me but the rules about controlling the ball as you are falling to the ground for a pass are crystal clear. The rule actually makes sense because it takes subjectivity out of it, if you are falling then you have to maintain control. Simple enough. You would have a lot more arguments if they brought subjectivity into the play.
Anyway the Steelers had multiple other shots at the end zone after that play. Take care of business and the drop by James doesn't matter.
Robb
Actually that's not considered a touchdown as he didn't control the ball to the ground. You guys continue to ignore the obvious.
Let Eli explain it to you. He knows the rules better:
Like others, as it happened Manning thought it was a clean catch. But on replay, he saw that it wasn’t.
“I was watching the game live, you see it, and it doesn’t look like an incompletion at all,’’ Manning said. “Once they slow it down and see him going to the ground and the ball hitting the ground, incompletion …
“You hate it, when you’re watching it live, you don’t even think about that not being a catch. When they run it down, hey, when you go to the ground you got to finish with the ball in your hand. When it hits the ground and there’s movement, I was like, ‘I think that’s enough evidence where they’re gonna reverse that’.”
It’s so clear to Manning, he doesn’t understand why others are confused as to what constitutes a catch in the NFL
“I think it is clear what a catch is,’’ Manning said. “Especially when you’re going to the ground, you got to control the ball the whole time. You got to have it. If the ball hits the ground, you’re going to the ground, the ball moves or hits the ground and there’s a little loss of contact through the end of the play, it’s gonna be an incompletion.’’
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If anyone can’t see the ball clearly did hit the ground along with the TE left hand facing the opposite side of the ball clearly showing he didn’t have complete possession while the ball hit the ground is seeing what they want to see. I completely agree it should have been a TD when the ball crossed the the plane however the rule was followed and believe me the NFL wanted the Pats to lose, but the refs did their job.
Perkdog - you are missing the point. The ball crossing the plane does not matter here. He has to complete the catch. And did not by rule. If he was a runner it would be a TD.
Dimeman re read my post, I completely get the point.
I was going by the fact that you said you thought it should have been a TD. It clearly wasn't by rule.
Why go by that? I said It’s my opinion I didn’t say it was the wrong call. I think the rule should be changed and I believe I’m not in the minority in thinking that
No argument here. As long as the rule is in place......the player needs to make possession top priority....not trying for more yards or a TD. Case in point....in the Oakland/Dallas game. If Carr would have held onto the ball instead of holding it out and losing it.......the ball would be on the 1 yard line and Oakland still has the ball and kick a FG and go into OT. To me you have to think within the rules and do what is best for the team.......NOT making a heroic play that could cost you the game.
JMHO.
Jimmy G mic'd up on the game winning drive vs the Titans. This kid is legit & learned from the best the past three & a half years. Gonna be watching a ton of 49ers games in the coming years. Hard to believe he was this poised in his 5th NFL start while Roethlisberger's got 2 SB rings and blew the game on sunday night in this same situation needing to clock it for a FG.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jimmy-garoppolos-miced-clip-two-minute-drill-amazing-160611735.html
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Roethlisberger has led quite a few 4th quarter come from behind drives in his career and in big games, too. Jimmy G's come from behind win vs Tennessee was impressive but Gould deserves a lot of credit for nailing that 54-yard FG, too. I like what I see from Garappolo thus far but let's see how he fares once teams get some more tape on him before we start comparing him to a QB like Roethlisberger.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Oh definitely but i'm just saying had you watched those two QBs for the first time on sunday,you would think the roles would have been reversed with one guy making his 5th start & the other his 197th start. I'm not a fan of Roesthlisberger the person but as a QB he's an absolute HOF QB imo. After watching the game again and seeing that final play twenty times by now I just think a guy with his pedigree should have taken control of the situation when there was so much confusion there. Maybe Brady has spoiled us Pats fans for so long making it look easy in those moments when its really not.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
The ending of that game made me grin.
Not sure why people keep mentioning "football move" over and over. That phrase never appears in the rule. What the rule says is that the player must "clearly establish himself as a runner". Very obviously, Jesse James did not do that. As fergie23 posted, James never had his feet under him, never regained his balance, was never upright, was never in a position to dodge anyone - all things we associate with being a runner.
Personally, I love the rule. It removes pretty much all subjectivity.
Brady owns the Steelers, like Bradshaw owned the Cowboys.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I agree Brady has owned the Steelers. I believe his record against them is off the charts. In fact his record is almost as good as Ottos.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
I don't if any QB ever can top this but Brady is 27-3 all time vs the Buffalo Bills and could get win #28 tomorrow afternoon.
just checked a few other all time greats:
Favre 28-9 vs the Lions including playoff games
Manning 17-3 vs the Texans
Elway 11-0 vs Patriots...ouch!
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Aside from the TD called back and following INT what I find funny that nobody is talking about is during the review of the James TD what was Big Ben doing? He literally was down on one knee praying lol and Tomlin and the rest of the team was walking around like they were waiting on a photo finish at the track, the OC, WR’s and Tomlin should have been thinking about what to do if that play was reversed, maybe Ben wouldn’t have been so frazzled and came up with a better play that throwing it in the middle of the end zone with Pats players all over his intended receiver! That right there is what separates Belichek and Brady from the rest of the league.
Excellent point.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
I totally agree. I know a lot of Steeler fans don't care for Tomlin.
Its because He's not a good coach. He has been holding back the team for years.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED