@baz518 said:
I am glad they made it in. I know I'm the exception, but I think some peoples' standards are way too high. I think I saw someone say its not the Hall of Good, but its not the Hall of Once-in-a-Lifetime Greatness either. These guys were stars (and famous) for more than a decade, were superstars in the Midwest and (I assume) lengends of Detroit.
And maybe this will mean Mark Grace will eventually get in, since he was a better player than Trammell!
Hey - Mark Grace led the majors in hits during the decade of the 90s. All other such decade leaders are in the hall.
Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors. saucywombat@hotmail.com
Dave Kingman hit 442 home runs without the assistance of steroids....can we show Kong some love?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Tram had basically the same OPS+ as Ripken (110 VS 112) and won twice as many Gold Gloves. He was a LOT better than some in here are giving him credit for being.
@lahmejoon said:
Morris deserves it, IMO. Less convinced with Trammell, but Whitaker was better than Rickey Henderson, so...
Not sure if this was supposed to be some kind of joke or not, but Rickey Henderson is arguably the best all-around player of his generation.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
<< Rickey Henderson is arguably the best all-around player of his generation >>
Yes, that is an argument & a poor horse lost his life a few weeks back on this topic
But in the end, it was determined he WAS the best, and Rickey said so
@Tabe said:
Tram had basically the same OPS+ as Ripken (110 VS 112) and won twice as many Gold Gloves. He was a LOT better than some in here are giving him credit for being.
If you only look at stats Cal doesn't shine as bright but he was the first large SS that still had a great glove. He also holds a record that might be the toughest one to break, the consecutive games played record, which could take another 60 years to break.
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my 2 cents (which not everyone will agree with)....
I feel making the MLB HOF is more 'elite' than the 'NHL' and 'NFL' (When I say that I still hope I am going to wake up and fin out that Bud Selig getting in last year was a joke)
That being said - I still feel Morris and Trammell both belong (warning - I was a youngster when they played)
Morris - If I needed an all decade starter from the 1980s who you would pitch the early 80s version one game and the late 80s the next, he is at the top of my list with Bob Welch........what near decade span would someone want to start a HOFer like Bert Blyleven?
Trammell - A SS with a rare (back then) combination of solid hitter and fielder who was overshadowed at his position by Ripken. If Trammell had his resume and played in the National League - he would have been in the HOF years ago (extra All Star game starts) and Ozzie Smith would be the player up for HOF questioning.
@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
Both put up HOF stats, especially in their peak years, but they missed too many games and their careers just weren't long enough to gain automatic admittance. And though defense is typically secondary in these debates, Allen was also a particularly bad fielder. I do think they are both worthy of strong consideration, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@msassin said:
my 2 cents (which not everyone will agree with)....
I feel making the MLB HOF is more 'elite' than the 'NHL' and 'NFL' (When I say that I still hope I am going to wake up and fin out that Bud Selig getting in last year was a joke)
That being said - I still feel Morris and Trammell both belong (warning - I was a youngster when they played)
Morris - If I needed an all decade starter from the 1980s who you would pitch the early 80s version one game and the late 80s the next, he is at the top of my list with Bob Welch........what near decade span would someone want to start a HOFer like Bert Blyleven?
Trammell - A SS with a rare (back then) combination of solid hitter and fielder who was overshadowed at his position by Ripken. If Trammell had his resume and played in the National League - he would have been in the HOF years ago (extra All Star game starts) and Ozzie Smith would be the player up for HOF questioning.
Your argument for Morris is well crafted since it goes from early to late but let's not forget about some of the other great 80's pitchers like Gooden, Clemens, Stieb, Hershiser, Saberhagen, Valenzuela, etc...
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@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
Both put up HOF stats, especially in their peak years, but they missed too many games and their careers just weren't long enough to gain automatic admittance. And though defense is typically secondary in these debates, Allen was also a particularly bad fielder. I do think they are both worthy of strong consideration, though.
Allen played longer, and had more good years, than Koufax. Just saying.
@Tabe said:
Tram had basically the same OPS+ as Ripken (110 VS 112) and won twice as many Gold Gloves. He was a LOT better than some in here are giving him credit for being.
If you only look at stats Cal doesn't shine as bright but he was the first large SS that still had a great glove. He also holds a record that might be the toughest one to break, the consecutive games played record, which could take another 60 years to break.
The point wasn't to denigrate Ripken but to praise Trammell.
That said, I'm not sure I could care less about Ripken being tall or his streak. Neither one of those things makes him more of a HOFer in my eyes.
@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
@gemint said:
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
Both put up HOF stats, especially in their peak years, but they missed too many games and their careers just weren't long enough to gain automatic admittance. And though defense is typically secondary in these debates, Allen was also a particularly bad fielder. I do think they are both worthy of strong consideration, though.
Allen played longer, and had more good years, than Koufax. Just saying.
I think the standard for hitters is a bit different than it is for pitchers and as good as Allen was, he did not absolutely dominate the league like Koufax did when he won 3 Cy Young Awards, an MVP (while finishing 2nd two other seasons) and 2 WS MVPs in the span of 4 seasons. I do agree that Allen was a great hitter, but he played 150+ games only 4 times and 130+ games only 6 times in his career. He was also a pretty bad fielder, though I would still vote for him. Koufax also had tremendous postseason success while Allen had none.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
True, Allen had no postseason success in his one postseason series. 2 for 9 + 3 walks. Reached base 5 times in a 3 game series. Not bad.
No, Allen did not absolutely dominate like Koufax did but he also didn't have the ridiculous home park advantage that Koufax did. Still won a ROY, an MVP, 2 other MVP top 10s, led in OPS four times, OPS+ three times, and homers twice. Allen also had a higher WAR (58 to 49 - to be fair, he played 2 more seasons than Sandy, ignoring 1963).
The point isn't to try and say that Allen belongs ahead of Koufax or anything of that nature. No, it's to point out that the "not long enough" career" was actually plenty long enough.
@Tabe said:
True, Allen had no postseason success in his one postseason series. 2 for 9 + 3 walks. Reached base 5 times in a 3 game series. Not bad.
No, Allen did not absolutely dominate like Koufax did but he also didn't have the ridiculous home park advantage that Koufax did. Still won a ROY, an MVP, 2 other MVP top 10s, led in OPS four times, OPS+ three times, and homers twice. Allen also had a higher WAR (58 to 49 - to be fair, he played 2 more seasons than Sandy, ignoring 1963).
The point isn't to try and say that Allen belongs ahead of Koufax or anything of that nature. No, it's to point out that the "not long enough" career" was actually plenty long enough.
I've already said I would personally vote for Allen if I had an opportunity but I would remove the word "plenty" from your last sentience to make it more accurate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@Tabe said:
Tram had basically the same OPS+ as Ripken (110 VS 112) and won twice as many Gold Gloves. He was a LOT better than some in here are giving him credit for being.
If you only look at stats Cal doesn't shine as bright but he was the first large SS that still had a great glove. He also holds a record that might be the toughest one to break, the consecutive games played record, which could take another 60 years to break.
The point wasn't to denigrate Ripken but to praise Trammell.
That said, I'm not sure I could care less about Ripken being tall or his streak. Neither one of those things makes him more of a HOFer in my eyes.
I never said you tried to denigrate Ripken I was just pointing out some facts that made Ripken special.
You might not care but before him players that size usually only played the corner infield positions.
His streak shows his toughness and dedication to the game and it should definitely factor into anyone voting on the HOF selection.
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As for his streak, beyond arguing that he'd have helped his team by resting, the steak doesn't mean all that much either. If it did, Everett Scott and Steve Garvey would be in the Hall. That's not to knock the steak as an accomplishment. It's pretty remarkable. It just doesn't mean all that much on a HOF resume.
@Tabe said:
True, Allen had no postseason success in his one postseason series. 2 for 9 + 3 walks. Reached base 5 times in a 3 game series. Not bad.
No, Allen did not absolutely dominate like Koufax did but he also didn't have the ridiculous home park advantage that Koufax did. Still won a ROY, an MVP, 2 other MVP top 10s, led in OPS four times, OPS+ three times, and homers twice. Allen also had a higher WAR (58 to 49 - to be fair, he played 2 more seasons than Sandy, ignoring 1963).
The point isn't to try and say that Allen belongs ahead of Koufax or anything of that nature. No, it's to point out that the "not long enough" career" was actually plenty long enough.
I've already said I would personally vote for Allen if I had an opportunity but I would remove the word "plenty" from your last sentience to make it more accurate.
1749 games in 14 (+1 partial) seasons is plenty long enough when you hit like he did.
@Tabe said:
True, Allen had no postseason success in his one postseason series. 2 for 9 + 3 walks. Reached base 5 times in a 3 game series. Not bad.
No, Allen did not absolutely dominate like Koufax did but he also didn't have the ridiculous home park advantage that Koufax did. Still won a ROY, an MVP, 2 other MVP top 10s, led in OPS four times, OPS+ three times, and homers twice. Allen also had a higher WAR (58 to 49 - to be fair, he played 2 more seasons than Sandy, ignoring 1963).
The point isn't to try and say that Allen belongs ahead of Koufax or anything of that nature. No, it's to point out that the "not long enough" career" was actually plenty long enough.
I've already said I would personally vote for Allen if I had an opportunity but I would remove the word "plenty" from your last sentience to make it more accurate.
1749 games in 14 (+1 partial) seasons is plenty long enough when you hit like he did.
Yes, but he played 130+ games in a season only 6 times in his career. Long enough? Yes. Plenty long? No.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@grote15 said:
Dave Kingman hit 442 home runs without the assistance of steroids....can we show Kong some love?
Remember how I said Jack's 3.90 ERA was really hurting his HOF chances? Well Dave's meager .236 BA is far worse (usually you'd be lucky to make a big league roster with an average that low).
As for his streak, beyond arguing that he'd have helped his team by resting, the steak doesn't mean all that much either. If it did, Everett Scott and Steve Garvey would be in the Hall. That's not to knock the steak as an accomplishment. It's pretty remarkable. It just doesn't mean all that much on a HOF resume.
I could've sworn Steve as at least "on the bubble" at one time? As for the streak, Cal's 3000 H's alone is (traditionally at least) an automatic first ballot bid. And I've gone repeatedly on record as saying 3000 K's for a pitcher should count the same in terms of HOF credentials.
Post season greatness has to be the other intangible in why one guy would make it over the other when both have similar stats. I think that helps the Morris argument.
Looking at today's player, I feel Kershaw is a guarantee to make the hall if he never pitched again, based on dominance. What about Bumgarner? Very good pitcher, no regular season awards, but 3x WS champ and completely dominated a WS, winning an MVP? Adds to his lore. I would vote them both in if they never pitched again. What about Verlander? Scherzer? Felix Hernandez? All guys with similar stats, but differing levels of regular season accolades and post-season success. I don't think Felix gets in if he never pitched again.
@grote15 said:
Dave Kingman hit 442 home runs without the assistance of steroids....can we show Kong some love?
Remember how I said Jack's 3.90 ERA was really hurting his HOF chances? Well Dave's meager .236 BA is far worse (usually you'd be lucky to make a big league roster with an average that low).
Good thing you cleared that up,..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm totally on board with Kershaw's greatness. However, his major league debut was May 25, 2008, so he doesn't yet have the required 10 years. It's just semantics, I know...They'd do whatever was necessary to get him his service time even if his left arm became detached.
Bumgarner's debut was September 8, 2009.
I was responding to the old "even if they never threw another pitch, I'd vote them both in". Unless there is some way to finagle the service time like the "Super 2" arbitration guys, or you just get credit for being on the 40 man roster for any length of time before your official MLB debut, then right now, neither guy would be on the ballot.
@countdouglas said:
I'm totally on board with Kershaw's greatness. However, his major league debut was May 25, 2008, so he doesn't yet have the required 10 years. It's just semantics, I know...They'd do whatever was necessary to get him his service time even if his left arm became detached.
The rule isn't 10 years of service time, it's playing in 10 seasons.
Specifically, the rule is "Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A)."
Kershaw has competed in 10 seasons (2008-2017).
p.s. The 3(A) rule is "A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election."
Comments
Hey - Mark Grace led the majors in hits during the decade of the 90s. All other such decade leaders are in the hall.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
Dave Kingman hit 442 home runs without the assistance of steroids....can we show Kong some love?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Throw McGriff in also.
Tram had basically the same OPS+ as Ripken (110 VS 112) and won twice as many Gold Gloves. He was a LOT better than some in here are giving him credit for being.
Thank you! And for the record, had the most doubles in that decade too.
Grace was better than Kong too.
Not sure if this was supposed to be some kind of joke or not, but Rickey Henderson is arguably the best all-around player of his generation.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
That would be a ceremony worth watching, but I'm not so sure this HOF voting isn't all rigged.
They will probably keep him out, until a very thin year of players are left to pick from
<< Rickey Henderson is arguably the best all-around player of his generation >>
Yes, that is an argument & a poor horse lost his life a few weeks back on this topic
But in the end, it was determined he WAS the best, and Rickey said so
Bonds all the way!
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If you only look at stats Cal doesn't shine as bright but he was the first large SS that still had a great glove. He also holds a record that might be the toughest one to break, the consecutive games played record, which could take another 60 years to break.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
my 2 cents (which not everyone will agree with)....
I feel making the MLB HOF is more 'elite' than the 'NHL' and 'NFL' (When I say that I still hope I am going to wake up and fin out that Bud Selig getting in last year was a joke)
That being said - I still feel Morris and Trammell both belong (warning - I was a youngster when they played)
Morris - If I needed an all decade starter from the 1980s who you would pitch the early 80s version one game and the late 80s the next, he is at the top of my list with Bob Welch........what near decade span would someone want to start a HOFer like Bert Blyleven?
Trammell - A SS with a rare (back then) combination of solid hitter and fielder who was overshadowed at his position by Ripken. If Trammell had his resume and played in the National League - he would have been in the HOF years ago (extra All Star game starts) and Ozzie Smith would be the player up for HOF questioning.
How about Tony Oliva or Richie Allen?
Both put up HOF stats, especially in their peak years, but they missed too many games and their careers just weren't long enough to gain automatic admittance. And though defense is typically secondary in these debates, Allen was also a particularly bad fielder. I do think they are both worthy of strong consideration, though.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Your argument for Morris is well crafted since it goes from early to late but let's not forget about some of the other great 80's pitchers like Gooden, Clemens, Stieb, Hershiser, Saberhagen, Valenzuela, etc...
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Allen played longer, and had more good years, than Koufax. Just saying.
The point wasn't to denigrate Ripken but to praise Trammell.
That said, I'm not sure I could care less about Ripken being tall or his streak. Neither one of those things makes him more of a HOFer in my eyes.
I put one together a few years ago. Love the Morris and Molitor.
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1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
I think the standard for hitters is a bit different than it is for pitchers and as good as Allen was, he did not absolutely dominate the league like Koufax did when he won 3 Cy Young Awards, an MVP (while finishing 2nd two other seasons) and 2 WS MVPs in the span of 4 seasons. I do agree that Allen was a great hitter, but he played 150+ games only 4 times and 130+ games only 6 times in his career. He was also a pretty bad fielder, though I would still vote for him. Koufax also had tremendous postseason success while Allen had none.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
True, Allen had no postseason success in his one postseason series. 2 for 9 + 3 walks. Reached base 5 times in a 3 game series. Not bad.
No, Allen did not absolutely dominate like Koufax did but he also didn't have the ridiculous home park advantage that Koufax did. Still won a ROY, an MVP, 2 other MVP top 10s, led in OPS four times, OPS+ three times, and homers twice. Allen also had a higher WAR (58 to 49 - to be fair, he played 2 more seasons than Sandy, ignoring 1963).
The point isn't to try and say that Allen belongs ahead of Koufax or anything of that nature. No, it's to point out that the "not long enough" career" was actually plenty long enough.
In football you can have 3-4 good yrs and get in lol.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I've already said I would personally vote for Allen if I had an opportunity but I would remove the word "plenty" from your last sentience to make it more accurate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I never said you tried to denigrate Ripken I was just pointing out some facts that made Ripken special.
You might not care but before him players that size usually only played the corner infield positions.
His streak shows his toughness and dedication to the game and it should definitely factor into anyone voting on the HOF selection.
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Being tall doesn't add to a guy's Hall of Fame case. I'm well aware that Ripken was the first really big shortstop. And his height so revolutionized the position that the average height of a SS has barely increased by an inch in the last 35 years (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/219051906/shortstops-bigger-taller-cal-revolution)
As for his streak, beyond arguing that he'd have helped his team by resting, the steak doesn't mean all that much either. If it did, Everett Scott and Steve Garvey would be in the Hall. That's not to knock the steak as an accomplishment. It's pretty remarkable. It just doesn't mean all that much on a HOF resume.
1749 games in 14 (+1 partial) seasons is plenty long enough when you hit like he did.
Yes, but he played 130+ games in a season only 6 times in his career. Long enough? Yes. Plenty long? No.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Remember how I said Jack's 3.90 ERA was really hurting his HOF chances? Well Dave's meager .236 BA is far worse (usually you'd be lucky to make a big league roster with an average that low).
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
I could've sworn Steve as at least "on the bubble" at one time? As for the streak, Cal's 3000 H's alone is (traditionally at least) an automatic first ballot bid. And I've gone repeatedly on record as saying 3000 K's for a pitcher should count the same in terms of HOF credentials.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
Post season greatness has to be the other intangible in why one guy would make it over the other when both have similar stats. I think that helps the Morris argument.
Looking at today's player, I feel Kershaw is a guarantee to make the hall if he never pitched again, based on dominance. What about Bumgarner? Very good pitcher, no regular season awards, but 3x WS champ and completely dominated a WS, winning an MVP? Adds to his lore. I would vote them both in if they never pitched again. What about Verlander? Scherzer? Felix Hernandez? All guys with similar stats, but differing levels of regular season accolades and post-season success. I don't think Felix gets in if he never pitched again.
Gotta play 10 years to be eligible...
Good thing you cleared that up,..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Kershaw has 10 years and is #1 - by a lot - among all starters in ERA since 1920. He could retire tomorrow and would be a mortal lock.
I'm totally on board with Kershaw's greatness. However, his major league debut was May 25, 2008, so he doesn't yet have the required 10 years. It's just semantics, I know...They'd do whatever was necessary to get him his service time even if his left arm became detached.
Bumgarner's debut was September 8, 2009.
I was responding to the old "even if they never threw another pitch, I'd vote them both in". Unless there is some way to finagle the service time like the "Super 2" arbitration guys, or you just get credit for being on the 40 man roster for any length of time before your official MLB debut, then right now, neither guy would be on the ballot.
The rule isn't 10 years of service time, it's playing in 10 seasons.
Specifically, the rule is "Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A)."
Kershaw has competed in 10 seasons (2008-2017).
p.s. The 3(A) rule is "A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election."
You are correct. I admit my misunderstanding of the rule. Even a single game counts as one season in the eyes of the Hall.