1937-D 3 1/2 leg Buffalo nickel!!
Insider2
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The 1937-D 5c comes with a full leg. It also comes with the front leg polished off with only the hoof remaining. There is a 1936-D nickel with 3 1/2 legs. Has anyone ever heard of or seen a 1937-D 5c with a front leg that was not completely polished off?
Please do not post or discuss any counterfeit or altered coins in this discussion. Thanks!
PS I've never seen one and I have seen many hundreds of these coins so this is your chance to add to your "agrees."
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I've never seen or heard of one. I do know that there are 1937-D coins that have been for sale that exhibit the attributes of the 3 Legger BEFORE the front leg was abraided off.
One of the coins was offered by a reputable dealer. I don't know what the pick up points are, though.
I myself would like to see a picture of the coin.
Pete
Are you suggesting that it may have been two or more die polishing events that created the infamous 3 legged?
There is also a 1913 type 1 3-1/2 leg.
Collector, occasional seller
Yes I am. There are several Buffalo dates with 3 1/2 leg designations in "Cherrypickers." None of these "float-my-boat" as they look more like 3 3/4 legs. IMO, they would amount to nothing if the 37-D did not exist. The 1937-D is special. If one exists with a partial leg (3 1/4 to 3 1/2) I should think that someone here should have either seen or heard of one! It would have been sent to our host.
No, never seen one.
Never seen one, and I've looked at a LOT of 37-Ds because I've searched Buffalo rolls for years. I have seen on ebay 37-D s that sel lers claim as 3-1/2 legs with part of one of the rear legs missing. Not impressed by any of those, but some of the recognized 3hl coins are as nearly as weak or as weak as the 36d
I only care about the front leg. I've never seen a missing back leg on one of these coins. Anyone have an image of a polished off rear leg?
Nope. And, as Pete said-I'd love to see a picture of such an animal. A "pre 3 legged" must certainly exist.
Not necessarily, IMO, someone working at an authentication service in the 1970's would have seen one, published it, and then it would be common knowledge for authenticators and variety experts. AFAIK, in the last fifty years one has not surfaced. It appears the leg was polished off in one servicing of the die. So as of now, no Pre 3-leg coins are known.
Many years ago, I remember reading an article somewhere (the Numismatist?) that was based on theory that the reverse die from the 1936-D 3 1/2-Leg was used into 1937 production and further polished down, creating the 1937-D 3-Leg. If I remember correctly, the article disproved the theory. Does anyone remember reading this?
@Insider2 .... So, if I read your OP correctly, you are looking for a 1937D with full front legs... Is that correct?? Cheers, RickO
@ricko said: "@Insider2 .... So, if I read your OP correctly, you are looking for a 1937D with full front legs... Is that correct??"
No, The majority of 1937-D nickels have a full front leg. I have one or two of these. I cannot afford the 1937-D 3-leg coin that resulted from a polished die but I have several "altered" coins with the leg removed. Every genuine 1937-D 3-leg nickel I HAVE SEEN has the front leg missing completely. I'm asking if anyone here has seen a genuine 1937-D 3-leg coin with a partial front leg. If they exist, it may indicate that these coins have an UNKNOWN (up to now) middle die state!
@Insider2 ...Thank you, sorry I misunderstood.... I will check my hoard of 2x2's and other Buffs, however, I am reasonably certain I do not have one.... Cheers, RickO
@ricko said: "... I will check my hoard of 2x2's and other Buffs, however, I am reasonably certain I do not have one..."
I hope you find a 3-leg variety.
The theory is valid. The assumption that the 3 Legger might have been reworked prior to the total removal of the leg can't be dismissed. A clash could have happened very soon after the reworking....requiring another abbraiding. It could be the reason that no 3 1/2 Leggers have been found. The idea that there MIGHT be some can't be dismissed. Of course, this theory applies to all cases of dies that have been abraided.
Branch Mints sometimes used their Philadelphia supplied dies till they looked like mush, or shattered (1922-D Lincoln No D). New dies had to be ordered and sometimes were not available during coinage runs............or close to the end of runs. The latter is probably more so the culprit for overextending a dies' use.
If the supposition to this thread is that a 3 1/2 leg 1937-D could exist, then my opinion is Yes.
Pete
Yes I do remember reading this article and it was pretty convincing that the 36d and 37d abraded die buffs had no relation to one another. The 36d 3 1/2 legger was not a prequel to the 37d 3 legger.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Well, here is something for all of us to look for: A 1937-D 3 1/2 leg nickel. I expect this coin will show up in a PCGS slab sooner or later:
Note the usual diagnostics (neck & rear leg) are present but the Bison is not whizzing. Additionally a partial front leg is visible. I've never seen one of these. Please - no nonsense about an altered coin. The surfaces are 100% original. The fellow who took the images is a professional authenticator at one of the TPGS. One of the finalizers at the other top TPGS thinks he has seen one before. Let's find another one!
Maybe one of the early strikes from the newly polished 3-legged die before it started eroding terribly. That field around the buffalo is pretty smooth.
Collector, occasional seller
That's sure a new one for me. Must not be many of those around.
Did anyone else notice that the entire hoof is missing in addition to a "severely diminished" leg? If references to the coin being the same as the "famous" 3 Legger (but a different die state) are being suggested, then they are wrong.
This is a different reverse......re-worked and overused the same way as the famous coin.
This is from PCGS.
The leg was removed before the hoof, so there can not be a partial leg with no hoof.
The OP coin is the first I have seen....Ron's right. Can't be very many around.
Pete
Actually, the entire hoof is present, the image is bad.
It would stand to reason there would be different stages of the polishing process . After all they were polishing off the clashing when the dilemma occurred . So maybe they struck a few for testing. But it’s hard to amagine the rookie didn’t notice the whole damn leg was gone
Ok. Got it.
Pete
The Mint mark position should be compared with the famous one but Pete is correct in his assumptions-the shallowest parts of the design are the first ones to go when the die is polished. The rear leg erosion should also be compared between the two as well.
Man............. if only I could have one for my collection.
I LOVE old coins.
About 20 years ago I bought this 1937 D 3 leg from a reputable dealer. Recently I began to wonder if it was an altered coin because I can still see some of the leg. Is this a 1937 D 3 1/2 leg?
I believe there was a post recently that discussed this and we where trying to decide if it was early vs late die state or a different die set altogether because even the official slabbed ones have degrees of leg skeleton left from nothing to some bone
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Indeed there was-it was entitled "Apparently not all '37-D 3 leggers are created equal" from Feb 13 of this year. kuwegg57's coin appears to be one of these 3 1/4 legged varieties. As can be seen above, Insider2 first brought this to light a year and a half ago. Below is an image of the coin I posted. It is almost certainly an earlier die state of the well known 3 legged and is totally unrelated to the very similar 1936-D.
Wow! great thread! So, it appears that EDS 37-d 3 leg nickels do exist. Or do we call them 3-1/4 leg? I'm guessing that the degree of die erosion would change on the back leg as well...in other words, less back leg die erosion than normal on a EDS coin. The photos appear to confirm that. And doesn't that make perfect sense?
Tom
Since these coins are readily available one could view current dealer inventory in a search for die states as most dealers have several on hand.
3- Leggers are always available............for a price. I really didn't realize till recently that the degree of missing leg was really an issue.
The whole leg must have disappeared quite quickly after the removal and re-use of the die, as there really are very few specimens that show any remnant of a leg.
................at least not that I have seen.
Pete
I agree Pete-they seem to be quite rare.
Then maybe this new three and one half legged buff should get its own fs number ??
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Anything prior to the 3 leg will be with clashing and light struck issues I would say it’s not likely because they continued using dies from prior year and then all after are polished. I don’t recall new dies only reworked & polishing being discussed in books I have read.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
This die was not used the previous year. The 1936-D 3 1/2 legged is very similar but it's not the same die. See below-
If you gave just a cursory look at the reverse of these two 1936d and 1937d three and one half legged nickels you might think they came from the same reverse dies. My question? Should the 1937d three and one half legged buffalo be a separate and distinct variety or just a variant of the 37d three legged buffalo?
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I think it's just an Early Die State variant. Knowing that the shift that made the 3-Legger had a quota to fill, and the rush job done on the already terminal reverse die, I can't see any further abrasion done after the botch job.
The die was terminal already, and it got worse as it was used, shedding more detail as it went on. The missing leg area might have even picked up some grease to clog that area.
What is interesting is that we know that the "stream" between the legs was partially caused by the die beginning to rust. It is not as evident in the above picture as it is on almost all specimens that were minted later.
Of course this is just my opinion, and you can throw it out with the bath water if you want.
None of us will ever know the complete or true story to this "storied" coin.
Pete
pinion, and you can throw it out with the bath water if you want.
If I'm not mistaken, they are all perfect counterfeits made by Joe Bonanno during his NY years before he moved to Arizona and made Omega coins. I remember Bonanno sitting in my living room with Woodrow Wilson and a snifter of cognac laughing, laughing at the experts authenticating his fakes as though they were real.
It was an easy thing to accomplish in 1937. Middle of the Depression, money at a premium. It was easy to find a Mint employee to steal the dies from a pile waiting to be retired. She simply replaced the stolen dies with a pair of Sacagawea pattern coins which were then defaced and disposed of. As a result of that petty theft, we had to wait 60 years for a Sacagawea coin.
As I recall, her name was Goodfield or Goodfarm...or maybe Goodacre. Bonanno and Wilson had actually spent a weekend with the saucy lass at an Adirondack Mountain resort. If I recall, during that weekend, Bonanno was approached by a grey-skinned reptilian creature who had emerged from a disc-shaped car with flashing red lights. But I might be confusing stories...I might be thinking of the weekend that Bonanno knocked up Barbara Bush after a long weekend of salsa dancing in Miami beach.
@BuffaloIronTail said: "What is interesting is that we know that the "stream" between the legs was partially caused by the die beginning to rust. It is not as evident in the above picture as it is on almost all specimens that were minted later."
Curious, where did this opinion start? Who or where did you hear/read this?
The thing is, some one, some day in the future, will post this cute story as a fact like the "rusty stream" above.
I wonder if there are recorders of the dies like when they got re worked and how many coins ran through before and after I’m in the process of collecting photos to try to piece together early to late die state on the leg
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Bad choice of words to describe the problem. The correct wording would be "die erosion". I didn't hear "rust" from any source.
Thank's Skip for catching that.
Pete
I just don't believe the Mint allowed too many (none?) of their dies to rust.