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Questionable Color????!!
duder2
Posts: 18 ✭✭
I sent these coins in to get graded and got body bags back. So I followed-up with customer service to request reconsideration. I sent pictures of my coins and coins that they have deemed acceptable. Their response... still QC, but you can always send them in again! No thanks!
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I would agree with PCGS here.
I agree with you on this one.
However I would NOT send it in again
Seems like they're being tough on color right now. It's not just you. Try again in a few months.
You could send them ATS then cross them over.
Might it be that there is an larger than typical influx of modern AT coins coming into PCGS right now either through raw submissions or tampered-in-holder submissions for reholder and TrueView? If so, and I think there very well might be, then the AT line in the sand that PCGS uses might have gotten tighter for an unknown amount of time into the future.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Do NOT send them to NGC. They have always been extremely tough on modern toned coins.
There are a lot of perfectly concentric rainbow toned coins showing up over the last months. Many of the Lincolns. What does that tell you?
I find the color of every one of those coins to be Questionable.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The oldest is 2009? I would not give you a thumbs up either.
AT: accelerated toning.
bob
Did you send them all at once? Over time? Would be curious to see some that were graded. Thanks!
Natural toning should take many years to appear. A few years guarantees it was accelerated in some way.
I have a 50+ coins submission of modern toners (nothing this modern though) that I was about to send in - thanks for posting this... sorry this happened to you though...
Looks like PCGS has finally toughened up on modern toners. Im not saying your coins are AT, but they have been lax on toned moderns for years and years -- so it had to happen at some point.
NGC has been brutal on modern toned coins so Ive havent sent anything to them in years. Looks like NGC might loosened up a bit now that PCGS has tightened up -- could be some star coins there...
@Baley said: "I find the color of every one of those coins to be Questionable."
Actually, the color on many of them is questionable. Here is the problem from a collector's point of view.
Many say that "modern" coins don't have time to develop those colors. Many say "folks" are toning coins in original packaging and even slabs. Here is what we do know:
Those of us who have sets that were not toned from the mint and now are rainbow toned coins exactly like those Proof lincoln's know for sure the coins have not been doctored. Remember the big to do when a famous numismatist sent some toned coins that had been in his safe to a TPGS and they were returned "body-bagged?" I saved his letter to the editor of Coin World with his rant!
The major TPGS have slabbed several types of doctored coins from the moment they started. Toning became popular again and now they have slabbed coins with "doctored toning." These coins are out there. Now, what do you do when you realize that a particular alteration has gone undetected. You stop slabbing them. Or in some cases put them into a "details" holder and **take the heat & consequences."
That's OK for the TPGS but what about the poor collector who knows the history of his coin before it toned.
What's the solution? They are working on it. Until someone finds a way to positively ID old "natural"" toning from "fast" natural toning and from fraudulent alterations, I say enjoy your beautiful coins no matter what the TPGS's opinion is. While doing that, study the colors and patterns of "market acceptable toned coins." All the while remembering that in the future, certain of these colors and patterns will be discovered to be altered. Example: the muted pattern blocky tan, green, blue commemoratives from decades past.
PS And I almost forgot those 100% "white" rainbow toned PCI SE. If you didn't know they existed we would all think they were produced yesterday in a sophisticated chemistry lab!!
After encapsulating sketchy or blatantly AT coins for the last few years, the services have begun to tighten. This is a positive thing for the toned coin market.
P.S. Someone else mentioned NGC was tighter on modern toned coins. While I agree with his assessment, I think it is important to clarify that stricter does not mean that NGC's standards were not also loose. NGC has its fair share of shoddily ATed coins too. PCGS just went overboard, especially with silver eagles. One member, @braddick , had a silver eagle in a PCI questionable color slab that PCGS graded MS69!
I actually thought PCGS was generous. A few of them that straight-graded are suspect to my eye.
It's only money if at 1st you don't succeed try try again.
Some nice coins ricko my not like them but I do...
Hoard the keys.
I don't believe that would work for any toned SAE....unless things have changed, I recall hearing that they had a blanket policy of not grading/slabbing toned SAEs.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
AT coins are rampant in the hobby.... which, unfortunately for some people who have a coin that they did not 'assist', but tarnished due to some environmental oddity in their storage, gets rejected at the TPG. Artificial tarnish can, and is, produced to much higher standards today.... most of it seems to get slabbed. Really good AT cannot be identified by any other means but 'gut feel'. Sure, crappy jobs are obvious. Those who think they can determine AT from NT, when done well, are just wrong. Cheers, RickO
With the rash of coins being toned by a few people, those that are not artificial are being thrown out with the bath water.
Thats what I was told by NGC. Years ago I went 0-13 with NGC on a modern toner submission. Got a call from someone over there and thats what I was told. Repacked and the coins and sent them off to PCGS and went 13-0 on the same coins.
Here's the issue, very few graders at NGC or PCGS know what to look for on modern toners to be able to tell if they are AT or NT. I would even say very few experience dealers probably dont know either. This is a niche subset of the toner market. So once a grader sees 2 or 3 suspect coins, they all get bagged out of caution. That was even admitted by NGC. I understand the policy but its unfair as Wabbit says to throw the baby out with the bath water.
As for the OP coins, I dont know toned modern Lincolns or ASEs but I do know toned Ikes, and all of the Ikes look suspect. Creating amber and blue toning on Ikes is not difficult.
@TonerGuy
It's a shame you cannot enlighten us with your research. I posted a discussion a while back to see images of AT coins. I put up a few but the response from others was depressing.
Its not research, its observation. If you see enough NT coins, you see the patterns that emerge and if you spend enough time looking at obvious AT coins patterns also emerge. I can look at certain coins now and know which doctors have produced which coins. Every artist has a signature to their to work... even AT specialists.
The 2002, 2009 and 2012-S cents look like they have been heated in a super hot cast iron skillet.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
@TonerGuy said: "Its not research, its observation. If you see enough NT coins, you see the patterns that emerge and if you spend enough time looking at obvious AT coins patterns also emerge. I can look at certain coins now and know which doctors have produced which coins. Every artist has a signature to their to work... even AT specialists."
Same thing to me. You must get to a lot of shows or work at a TPGS. AFAIK, the professionals who work there have a harder time than you do identifying the toning doctors. Do you just study the internet images? Any tips to detecting fake toning for us? That's what I wanted in my original discussion. May I quote you and revive my discussion so we may learn more?
That's what some of the coins I've seen look like that are in the original, plastic Mint packaging!
I was curious about someone going through the trouble of posting something like this.
As for @Insider2 's comment about wanting to be enlightened, maybe I can help a little. It purely comes down to experience. I can provide one example of enlightenment that is specific to this thread.
You need to know the PACKAGING that is popular from the US MINT, along with AFTERMARKET holders. The toning associated with Capital Plastics type of holders is well known among people with experience in the 1950-1970 realm. The toning from all of the different 1940s-2000s mint packaging is well known, even by year, if you have enough experience. I am very familiar for the era that I dabble in, have cherrypicked etc.
Back to this thread though. The first coin shown is a 1977-S 1c. The US MINT packaging from 1977 Proof Sets does not allow for that type of toning. HOWEVER, the packaging from the US MINT in the early 2000s DOES ALLOW for that type of toning. I have cherrypicked original US MINT packaging with similar toning for the early 2000s sets. Based on this information (experience), a grader would be quite suspect of the 1977-S. Either it was helped along by being placed in early 2000s packaging or it was helped in another way. Also look at the shape of the toning. The early 2000s toning is much more circular. My experience is not deep enough to know if this is another clue but the less circular nature of the toning on the 1977-S does make me wonder.
For the 1976-S 1c shown as QC, graders tend to be very suspect of such strong differences between obverse and reverse toning based on how the mint packaging tends to tone coins. There have certainly been exceptions, that's for sure! This may be the graders erring on the side of caution. The 1981-S that the 76-S is being compared to, I guess, seems to have a more natural looking progression of color where the blue looks to be just in the fields (much more difficult to fake which lends to it being blessed). For the 1974-S, the images are not good enough for me to judge. When comparing photos, it would be nice to compare TV to TV.
Anyway, this is a snapshot of where my experience has lead me.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I am not a grader. Graders actually dont see enough raw toners in their natural habitat to be able to accurately identify AT vs. NT. And probably dealers dont either, they go off their "feelings" based on what they have seen in other series. Comparing Morgan toners to Ike toners is like comparing apples to Cadillacs. You have to specialize in series and know the toning colors and patterns for each year.
Its what Keyman just posted - experience - seeing the coins in their natural toning environment. He has seen so many coins he knows that the toning on 1977-S Lincoln proofs from the Mint packaging does not allow for that type of toning noted in the posted pics by the OP. But he also knows that it is seen on Lincolns from the 2000 era... that specialization and knowledge that only comes from experience. My experience is that I have looked at - in person at shows and on the Internet thousands upon thousands of toned coins, raw and graded over the past 20 years. Mostly Peace $, Ikes, Jeffs and JFKs some Lincolns (not moderns), WLHs, Mercs and Buffs. As for toned Peace $, that is my greatest area of expertise and I have had dealers call me and show me their coins and ask about whether the toning is NT vs. AT and what should prices be on particular coins.
As I said, I dont know toning on modern proof Lincolns but I accept what Keyman said as being 100% accurate since Ive seen the same issues with other denominations and Mint packaging.
Take for example 1974-S proof Brown Ikes. You can easily find these with some rather nice toning in their original Mint packaging.
Here's an example that has been graded by PCGS...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-S-Eisenhower-Ike-Toned-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-PR67CAM-Target-Toning/182377204709?hash=item2a76874be5:g:JOgAAOSw4GVYRIHM
Here's an example graded by NGC in the original Mint packaging...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-POP-Alert-1974-S-NGC-PF69-Star-Cameo-U-S-Mint-sealed-Color-Toned/201592703567?hash=item2eefdc8a4f:g:LIcAAOSwBahVfjZb
There is no question that both coins are NT. This is common toning on 74-S proofs caused by the Mint packaging.
However if I saw that same toning on a 1971-S proof Brown Ike, I would question it since most of the toning imparted by the Mint packaging on that year look like this...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-S-PCGS-PR-68-DCAM-Deep-Cameo-Eisenhower-Silver-Dollar-Ike-Colorful-Toned/112663991977?hash=item1a3b4c16a9:g:jfsAAOSwvApaH3GN
Something changed in the packaging or the alloy of the coin that allows for such different patterns/colors from the same packaging on the same denomination.
And if I saw those same pattern/colors on a 1978-S proof Ike (as posted above by the OP) that did not come in Brown packs with red velvet inserts I would also question that toning. 1978-S Prook Ikes did not come in brown packaging from the Mint, only in plastic Proof sets, so it would be odd to see that pattern/toning on a 78-S.
Yes, on a 1970'S cent here in the late 2010'S, still in it's original packaging, vivid concentric rainbow color is believable that time did it naturally.
On a 5 or 10 year old cent, unless it's Still in the OGP (or, even if it is), how are we supposed to think it's been stored?
I guess the collector's house or SDB has high temperature fluctuations and lots of reactive gasses. Maybe he hides them near his water heater, diguised from thieves by wrapped in greasy napkins?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Large submission of modern toners throws the flag to me!
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To me..............all coins have questionable color. There are too many cooks out there spoiling the broth.
Pete
It was a large submission, because I saved them over the past year or more. Anyways, for many of those, I broke them out of the mint packaging. This one I attached was from mint packaging. My gripe is if TPG allow certain toners to be market acceptable, they need to stick with it. Maybe new artificial techniques are being discovered that went unnoticed, as one person noted, which is a good point. These colors and patterns are nothing new. This certainly isn't the first time they've seen this type of toning... if they are going to be wishy-washy or if they don't have experienced graders, the TPG needs to have reference pictures or have some kind of standard. That is completely irresponsible on their part. How many heated/blue nickel proofs (1956-recent) has PCGS accepted over the past year on and off (accepted, rejected, then accepted again)? Makes me sick!
I think that is exactly the point. They have seen these patterns/colors before and now have decided that they made a mistake with allowing those patterns/colors to be market acceptable. The 71-S posted above is relative easy to create...
Here are 3 Ikes (71-S, (2) 72-S and 74-S) from edynamicmarketing with the same toning as the 71-S graded by PCGS. At some point they have to stop the wave of AT. Unfortunately that means other NT coins are going to get stopped as well.
And really isnt that how TPGs make money... shifting standards? What was MA is now AT only to be MA again later? What was a 63 is now a 63+ or 64?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-S-Proof-Eisenhower-Ike-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-PR68-DCAM-Multi-Trim-Color-Toned/282554143049?hash=item41c98a1149:g:trYAAOSwstJZQCys
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-S-Silver-Eisenhower-Dollar-IKE-BU-Proof-Rainbow-Color-Toned/282759330781?hash=item41d5c4fbdd:g:mDgAAOSwoAxZsYRJ
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-S-Silver-Eisenhower-Dollar-IKE-BU-Proof-SUPERB-Rainbow-Color-Toned/272967614328?hash=item3f8e233f78:g:bhMAAOSw2DFZsWU6
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1972-S-Silver-Eisenhower-Dollar-IKE-BU-Proof-Rainbow-Color-Toned/282759181545?hash=item41d5c2b4e9:g:T50AAOSwRFdZsWY2
This is where I sit, passionately. It's hurt to see a bunch of fake toned copper get through the gates the past several years. Luckily the amazing and authentic stuff is still grading.
Jeff
I've had them say QT on crossover attempts.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Yeah, crossing over is NOT the solution.
For some coins, it is a numbers game, submit over and over until they get blessed. That said, my comments above stand and for some coins it will just be an exercise in frustration...or an exercise in boosting the stock price for PCGS.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.