A 1795 Gold $10 Coin, Confused About The Pricing, Was on Ebay
CoinPhysicist
Posts: 597 ✭✭✭✭
Hi All,
Curious what you think about this one. I was watching a a PCGS MS 62 1795 $10 Gold Coin (With no intent of buying it...) and it seemed peculiar to me. It was listed at opening bid $70,000 and no one took that opening bid (here is the listing https://www.ebay.com/itm/1795-10-13-Leaves-Gold-Draped-Bust-Type-1-Small-Eagle-PCGS-MS62-/302534117028?hash=item46707046a4:g:Vo8AAOSwjqVZMKbA&nma=true&si=7RaBBeLtVpZwIJYekOQgJieXGfs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557). It is PCGS Cert 50053333. According to PCGS, the coin sold for $115,000 in 2010 at Heritage and then $129,950 at Stacks in 2012. Yet this coin cannot even muster up $70,000 on eBay today? Is it a bad coin? It does look like it might have some scratches on it that PCGS forgave when it was graded. Is the market on these just really down?
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Comments
Probably just an overlooked listing as many upper echelon collectors do not surf eBay.
Translation: it was not for sale for $70k.
Those are adjustment marks, not scratches. They were used to reduce the planchet to the correct weight.
Yeah it was a reserve auction... TI isn't known for giving coins away.
They are selling the coin for $199,500 on their website.
I saw it and I actually sent a link to a couple of my friends. Just a magnificent piece and my dream coin. #1 in my book my friend.
Wow,that's a beautiful piece !!!
Collectibles in that price range exist in a world I don't live in.
The reserve was much higher
A day or so ago someone made a comment about how some people would not buy a very expensive coin at a small show. That might apply to eBay in the Internet world. There are so many games going on there, including the offers that really "cat fish," ( like this one for the 1795 eagle @ $70,000) counterfeits and "borrowed" photos, that it really doesn't make one feel safe to spend a lot of money.
Recently I tried to help a collector who bought a counterfeit Chinese coin in a counterfeit PCGS holder from eBay. He's trying to get his money back. Good luck.
I was the under bidder at $10
I figured for face, it was worth it
BHNC #203
While I ....KNOW... that adjustment marks ...SHOULD....not affect the desirability of a coin.
To ME...they do.
Ugly adjustment marks have effected the value of these coins for as long as I have been a collector, since the 1960s.
I would rather have a Sm Eagle $10 without adjustment marks, but if I won this one in a giveaway, I'd refrain from complaining.
On a separate note, WHY ONE EARTH wouldn't someone selling a $200k coin have a decent photo taken?
I think the coin value is too lofty for the Bay, JMO
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Because this is a "cat fish" listing. The purpose is to let a wider audience know that they have this coin in their inventory. There is no way in hell that they are going to sell it for $70,000. It’s bait and switch game when they are looking to either have an opening for negotiation or use one or more shills to push up the bid.
I know that shills exist on eBay, but I had dealers ask me to do it when I was dealer. I refused.
The bid clearly states that the reserve has not been met and it is a secret reserve. I don't see any problem requiring the bidding to start at $70,000 to only attract serious bidders. I don't see anything wrong going on here.
More interesting is the link lower in the eBay page for a 1795 “unique, rare,” etc dollar, with a buy it now of 6.8 million, or thereabouts. Lots of pretty color and sparkles in the ad. An okay coin, but nothing special.
There is a problem when their minimum acceptable bid is at least $50,000 more than what they posting at $70,000. That is bait and switch.
Free advertising. Too bad they can't list it as P.O.R..
That coin is drastically over priced. If that piece is worth over $6 million, then the AU-53 I have in my collection must be worth $60,000 which is only 1% of their price. Ads like that destroy a company's credibility in my option.
Not to anyone who can afford the coin. You don't get to the point where you can spend $50K+ on a coin without some rudimentary form of street smarts.
Free advertising, nothing more.
HAHA followed link and found this one
All our coins are Authentic and you will want to come back GAIN
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Unique-Oldest-Highest-and-Rarest-of-ALL-Seris-of-entire-1795-1-Off-NGC-MS62/352210965943?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=1&asc=41375&meid=af839be34098461a8054caca1bf17ae2&pid=100011&rk=2&rkt=12&sd=302534117028&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I know that I'm just common, ignorant man, and that you are a book learned gentlemen, but I avoid doing business with companies that pull stunts like that. You will notice that I used the word "avoid" because I have gone into the lion's den on occasion, but I have had a special reason for doing it.
When someone is playing games, and is out get you, you are usually better off shopping at another venue. It’s a lot more fun doing business with honest dealers who tell you up front what they want for their coins than the other kind who prefer to hide the shadows.
@UriahHeep
You're very knowledgeable about coins and history.
You are ignorantly simplistic about many things in the market and hobby that have changed over the past years.
I've put in almost 40 years as a ongoing active participant on a national level, helped start a TPG, taught Grading at ANA, and still deal on a regular basis with current ongoing market developments.
I am more educated than you, or at least (seemingly), better able to use my education. See Aristotle's aphorism on the sign of an educated mind being able to consider an idea without accepting it.
Forget my book-learning. What's salient is that I passed 5th grade arithmetic and have survived (and thrived) as a pro for those 40 years. I know John Albanese personally, as do many others here, as well as understand the CAC business model and the world of good it's done for the hobby and industry. Neither he or we think he's God. He's likely more humble than either of us. What you seem often afraid of is that someone's opinion may have more validity that yours. It's only an opinion on a single coin, not an invalidation of one's life's work.
We would likely both consider me more arrogant than you. But spare me the false humility. Take responsibility for your willful ignorance. Count the number of times I have agreed or liked your posts. Like some others here, I am not unique in being capable of nuance.
You have virtually no sense of humor, are painfully self-referential, and represent as being victimized to the point of laughability.
Are you an alt for someone with 43,000,000 Twitter followers?
Flags only folks
@BillJones said: "There is a problem when their minimum acceptable bid is at least $50,000 more than what they posting at $70,000. That is bait and switch."
Nonsense! Do you actually know what "bait and switch" means? Lucy, this is Ricky, I'm confused again. They have not switched anything!
BTW, I have seen many auctions of all kinds of things that exceeded the opening bid and even the estimate by over 50%. Wasn't a painting sold recently that obliterated my 50% example?
@BillJones wrote: "I know that I'm just common, ignorant man,..."
Really? Say it's not so! I thought you were one of the "experts" around here.
I have bid on and won auctions on eBay in the past that started at 9.99 (reserve not yet met) where the actual reserve was in the 1000's of dollars and I expected it would be. Perhaps the low opening number was just to entice people into bidding and getting them to click on their other items for sale or drive traffic to their eBay store. At one time if you got 50 bids or more your item got a special 'hot' icon and placement at the head of all listings so getting multiple bids was a reason to start redicously low.
In this case I see nothing at all wrong with the starting bid. It's plenty high enough to weed out all but those that would have a serious interest. Those that are serious know they're not going to get a 130k for 70.
I wonder how long this coin has been in the eBay lister's inventory. I am sure any offer of $70,000 would be countered at a value above the reserve price. But I am happy to have seen this listing as I learn every day from such.
I sometimes place a bid on ultra expensive coins that I would be delighted to win. But I can live with the money more than I can live with the coin. I do take pride iin my low ball bids.
OINK
If listings like this are designed to be free advertising, then didn't this one backfire a little? Not because of the debate here, but because the target audience sees that nobody in the vast ocean of ebay buyers would even bid $70k on this $120-200k coin?
That's a good point since there is some risk in over-exposing the coin. If this was a major auction house, this factor would be significantly greater if it didn't sell. The coin is also listed on Collectors Corner at $199K.
I don't think a dealer would pay the Ebay fees on a coin at this price level.
And surely the high incidence of coins in both Collectors Corner and Ebay listings in this price level shows it works.
Per more than one major dealer, the coin itself doesn't get sold, but "their brand" is enhanced.
Anyone taking the time @logger7 and others did in due diligence will conclude $199K is code for POR and the reserve price is over their initial cost. Or a consignor's price. Right now I have expensive coins on six different websites. A couple of them are consigned to me with the understanding I might make (at most) 5%. Two weeks after the next Long Beach show, some of this overall group will be relocated. These kinds of consignments go on all the time.
The Forum starts the due diligence process for many, and some of it is done better than that of some dealers.
Semi-apologies to some for the eighth-grade Latin, but QED.
Having talked with John Albanese over phone a few of times, I fully agree that he appears to be a humble man. Unfortunately some of those who support his business model are anything by humble. They have conferred upon him a reputation of infallibility which is a burden and a standard that virtually no human being can fulfil. Therefore any errors that his company commits are magnified in their significance to those of us who are simply interested in buying attractive coins at fair prices.
The CAC supporters have been quite vociferous in their attacks upon those who have not bought into the CAC concept completely. They have gotten personal with their attacks on many occasions both here and ATS. Early on John Albanese apologized to me over the phone for their behavior.
My complaints with CAC two-fold.
First, I feel that almost my entire collection has been invalidated. After spending over 40 years to build it, I now feel that I am obligated to spend many thousands of dollars to ship it to New Jersey to have it approved by a service that I have found to be far from infallible.
Are there coins in my collection that are not worthy of CAC’s seal of approval? Absolutely. Although it would be great to purchase every coin in a perfect state of preservation for the grade, there some items that mean more to me than others. Therefore if the price and level of pleasure that I derive from particular piece were matched, I purchased it. For that reason I have some coins that some people might view as “clunkers” with respect to CAC approval.
Second, I’m tired of CAC errors. I have very small number of American coins left on my want list, and I have placed that list with a select group of dealers. I get excited every time I get a notice that one of those items has become available. In the past when I saw that the item had a CAC approval, I thought that “my ship had arrived.” Sure, the price would be higher because of the CAC approval, but the coin would be “all there.”
Unfortunately some of those notices have resulted in disappointment. When I saw the coin, it fell short of expectations. I’m not talking about eye appeal issues; I’m talking about the grade. When all you have set out to do is to say “yes” or “no” to a coin, your batting average should be very high. When you are in doubt, say “no.” It’s that simple. And yet I have not found that to be the case with CAC, and I find that to be deeply disappointing.
BTW, the crack about “book learned gentleman” was lifted from the second act of “My Fair Lady” written by Alan Jay Lerner. It was Eliza’s respond to Henry Higgins’ over bearing ways after he had tracked her down at his mother’s house following “her triumph at the ball.”
@UriahHeep is from Charles Dickens' "David Copperfield". His signature line in the book is "I'm a very humble man".
A few here will likely have heard this one: "They gave me a medal for humility, but they took it back because I wore it."
Your right to your opinion on buying involves "disappointment" many endure with less palpable anguish. We ALL lost our seeming autonomy when TPGs came along. Every market of any sort in existence today relies (to a very significant extent) on a consensual reality. I make my best money on my outliers and usually lose money on at least 10% of my trades when coins don't grade "right". Or my 73 year-old eyes mess up.
It's pure numbers. Any serious collector who doesn't use CAC to sell is a fool whose twitching ego means more to him than his legacy to his survivors.
Nah, don't send that 1808 QE to CAC. Put it in your will. Let someone else pay the $400 insurance and shipping and make the last 30K.
@Laurie at Legend is as big a CAC supporter as any. Stated on her home page: they buy and sell CAC coins they hand-pick.
Me too, just not exclusively CAC, Or exclusively PCGS.
Try Kurt Vonnegut's "Sirens of Titan" for "We are all victims of a series of accidents".
Or Anna Freud's "The Ego and Other Mechanisms of Defense".
Or Emmy Lou Harris' "The Pearl" with "The sorrows are constant and the joys are brief"
Or Buddha's "Life is difficult".
Or lie (oops, use "creative hyperbole") and see if you can get elected.
BTW, anyone who thinks I am posting this to anyone but other Forum members and lurkers mistakes my primary intention.
That is a truly outrageous statement. So CAC has to approve every coin that "serious collectors" buy or those coins are no good. No one else’s opinions or expertise matter. A lot of guys who paid premium prices for the non CAC’d coins out of the Pogue Sales must be pretty bummed to hear that this morning.
I know you just towing the party line, but really.
Ebay fees are still capped at $250. Also doubt you could use paypal for that amount!
@BillJones said: "My complaints with CAC two-fold. First, I feel that almost my entire collection has been invalidated.After spending over 40 years to build it, I now feel that I am obligated to spend many thousands of dollars to ship it to New Jersey to have it approved by a service that I have found to be far from infallible.
I feel your pain. Times change and things evolve. My 45 RPM records, 8-tracks, Radar detector, etc. have been made virtually useless.
I can either whine with the best of them or move on and get the new stuff.
@BillJones is tired of CAC errors.
LOL, I'm tired of all the grading errors I see! Don't these professionals know anything! In my mind I'm the best grader in the world and if the coin's grade looks off to me, I'm right!
@ColonelJessup quoted some folks:
Try Kurt Vonnegut's "Sirens of Titan" for "We are all victims of a series of accidents".
Anna Freud's "The Ego and Other Mechanisms of Defense".
Emmy Lou Harris' "The Pearl" with "The sorrows are constant and the joys are brief"
Buddha's "Life is difficult".
I'll add something from Kenneth Grahame's book, The Wind in the Willows, "He was indeed an altered Toad."
The acid test comes when you go to sell something. It does not matter what the hype has been when you bought it, it's the reception you get when you go to sell it. I learned from that from the school of hard knocks. When one grading point doubles the price, you don't agree with the grade, you have to walk away, even when CAC gave it its seal of approval.
I went to a different school Bill - real life. Usually It does not matter what the coin is or what it grades. When it is time to sell, you either take the best "low-ball" offer or keep the coin. Hopefully, you are not trying to liquidate a coin when you need the money.
The only times I made money that was not due to a very hot market was buying spectacular coins well over full retail and holding them until someone else begged me to sell well over retail.
@BillJones said:
Did I say exclusively?
My party line is "Use everything available in the market to your own specific needs and desires".
I am a true believer in numbers only. The probability of a coin selling for a greater price is often very high when CAC. Compare BlueSheet and BlueSheet CAC for some idea of general trends. HA Archives for specific groups when all and CAC-only are easily found.
No one's expertise is absolute. I miss that comfort, but no one thing is the answer. I sat thru the first four Pogue sales, where everyone one the planet could have and very likely did their due diligence. There are CAC Kool-Aiders who would not buy without that assurance. There are many knowledgeable folks who did. @privaterarecoincollector paid over $2M for THE 1808 QE. No sticker, and nobody (including JA) is going to say it sucks.
Just dueling anecdotes, LOL
I'm lucky enough to have multiple perspectives. Bottom-up, top-down, interpolate, extrapolate, polysyllabic, went to a really great high school and blah blah blather blah blah. It's usually 5th-grade arithmetic; discontinuous equations for super-grade and truly rare are less predictable.
"Not everything" does not mean "nothing". As in "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water".
Specifically, think about your $200K+ 1808 QE and its $400 shipping. Think risk/reward. Think cost/benefit ratio.Think.
Even though I can't definitively say this is an insult directly addressed to me, I think your wink is reportable as abuse. And the ASPCA will hear about your toad-doctoring.
Not directed at anyone specifically. Mr. Toad changed due to life experiences.
Since you and I have vastly different intellects I couldn't use quotes from two other favorite books. "Scuffy the Tugboat" or "Little Black Sambo."
Recently my wife and I sat down with our financial advisor to review our portfolio. As we sat there reviewing our holdings, I noted how refreshing to note the diversity in the investments markets. There are many industries, companies and investment instruments from which to choose and no one controls them all. There was no one individual who had a hold on the entire investment market the way CAC does on the U.S. coin market. It really showed to me why the time has come to really pull in my horns in, fill my current want lists and move to other areas of the hobby.
When a coin has to the piece that you want, which grades properly, is priced fairly and most importantly to some, approved by CAC, there are simply too many hurdles to jump to make the hobby fun.
@BillJones said: "When a coin has to the piece that you want, which grades properly, is priced fairly and most importantly to some, approved by CAC, there are simply too many hurdles to jump to make the hobby fun."
I see your point. Collecting, can't be any fun for those who can drop $,$$$ or $$,$$$ on something they like.
I myself got out of the hobby for the same reason and have started a collection of differently shaped brick pavers.
I also look for items constructed of glue and burnt matches. I'm trying to corner the market for that unappreciated "art form" before writing a book.
I think what @ColonelJessup is saying is that Bill's coins will eventually be CAC'd by someone. That someone probably won't be Bill, but it might be his heirs, or if not, definitely downstream buyers. Whenever Bill's marvelous coins are finally CAC'd, they'll realize their highest value in the current market. By refusing to consider CAC-ing them, Bill is leaving money on the table, so ColonelJessup is graciously yet firmly trying to shake Bill by the collar to see the error of not accepting the reality of the marketplace. Is that about right? If so, then ColonelJessup must share my own guess that, despite Bill's opinions about CAC, most of Bill's coins would bean. Right? What a sweet curmudgeonly compliment!
There is no use in spending money on CAC until I get ready to sell. At that point, I'd have the auction house do it if CAC is still a market force by then. Who knows if it will be a market force five or ten years from now? CAC's reputiation seems to be built around one man right now.
If I am not selling, it makes no sense to spend money on CAC.
Well said, Washingtonia and so true.....
@Washingtoniana said:
Most of your surmise is correct but, sunshine enemas aside, the assumed addressee is not my intended primary audience. Sorry to disappoint, but your post appealed to my vanity and the confusion curdled my curmudgeonly instincts to the point where I'm barely capable of irony, let alone snark. BTW, that emoji is missing from the last line of your post. Hopefully
I just agreed with both Washingtonia and BillJones.
He don't CAC for the same reason i don't PCGS my fabulous collection of raw gem coins... yet.
When sellin' time comes will be the time to Register the coins.
Ps, i like the the early eagle, would love it one grade net lower for the adjustment marks. Can't afford it either way, so not a market participant at this time
Pps, every thread eventually turns into cac thread if it runs long enough..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@ColonelJessup said: "Most of your surmise is correct but, sunshine enemas aside, the assumed addressee often not my intended primary audience. Sorry to disappoint, but your post appealed to my vanity and the confusion curdled my curmudgeonly instincts to the point where I'm barely capable of irony, let alone snark. BTW, that emoji is missing from the last line of your post. "
What did you just write after the part I highlighted?
PS Please don't be a Curmudgeon and just ""copy and paste" your original paragraph above. That's something I would do and you certainly don't wish to sink to that
level.
I'm 73 years old and I plan ahead. Pascal's Wager suggests that actuarial tables and good genes should be discounted. I could be run over by some bozo tomorrow. I will endure some aggravation today to protect my heirs from being screwed for 20% later on by a viciously predatory auction company. Otherwise, I'm more-than-slightly screwing them myself by protecting my ego. Insert "snark" emoji "here".
If one is convinced that the CAC market will be invalidated by losing JA, one might conclude it is irresponsible not to get out sooner rather than later. Perhaps one should consider presenting this as an "insurable interest" and taking out some term-life on JA as a hedge. Can we consider reductio ab adsurdum as an acceptable signifier for "snark"
If one had concluded "the thrill is gone", why would one hold?
If one considered these questions as rhetorical, why would anyone respond? Ummm, insert "snark" emoji " _ here_"
Just because Ted Cruz disgusts me doesn't mean I won't learn from his debating style.
Those ostrich-leather boots he's wearing came from the skin off the butt of some ill-prepared snowflake he went to school with at Harvard Law. Ummm, insert "snark" emoji "here".
Is this the curmudgeon thread?
He means, perhaps, thatmuch of what is written is not to You, but to the audience at large, and that further, that's ok, because you will not understand, or will pretend not to, much of the subtlety and/ or humor, and is kind if too tired to go onto it in further depth, but not too tired to peck out a cryptic yet snarky reply for fun.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
@Baley said: "He means, perhaps, thatmuch of what is written is not to You, but to the audience at large, and that further, that's ok, because you will not understand, or will pretend not to, much of the subtlety and/ or humor, and is kind if too tired to go onto it in further depth, but not too tired to peck out a cryptic yet snarky reply for fun."
LOL, You made it clearer. Wow, you must either have the same IQ level or you may be on the same "stuff." Thanks.