1685 Leopold Kreuzer

I was looking for information on this, was not able to find a link within HA:

Comments

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 6,930 ✭✭✭✭

    I'll leave it up to the experts, but it doesn't look authentic to me.

    8 Reales Madness



    Looking for Mexico 8 Reales 1772-1821 in AU+ condition. PM me!
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 7,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My thoughts as well. I'm not an expert, but it looks very questionable.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭

    A foreign and ancients dealer emailed he was 90% it was good but needed to see the edge.

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017 12:09AM

    I have one, the coin is real. They used rolled dies to make them. They're fairly common. Not worth too much.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 4:46PM

    @bronzemat said:
    I have one, the coin is real. They used rolled dies to make them. They're fairly common. Not worth too much.

    What's the price guide listing on these?

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭

    About what you paid on ebay. And that coin is about VF to EF.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    When they used roller dies, did the new coin have luster like a traditionally die struck/ or hammered coin? Or was the luster to a greater or lesser extent (I would think that it would not be greater, but had to ask)?

    Thanks!

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 4:45PM

    @bronzemat said:
    About what you paid on ebay. And that coin is about VF to EF.

    Are there online guides on how these get graded?

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    Age has no correlation to actual condition and should have no impact on grading standards.

    But hey, this is an expensive hobby - you pay for your practical education and you pay for your jollies.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 4:46PM

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    Age has no correlation to actual condition and should have no impact on grading standards.

    But hey, this is an expensive hobby - you pay for your practical education and you pay for your jollies.

    Is there an online guide on grading these?

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    Age has no correlation to actual condition and should have no impact on grading standards.

    But hey, this is an expensive hobby - you pay for your practical education and you pay for your jollies.

    Even by Morgan dollar standards it would be at least a slider.

    I hope you don't plunk down a lot of money on Morgan Dollars.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 6,930 ✭✭✭✭

    Grade-wise, looks high VF to me, as well. @logger7 - are you thinking it's very weakly struck (or rolled, I guess in this case)?

    8 Reales Madness



    Looking for Mexico 8 Reales 1772-1821 in AU+ condition. PM me!
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 4:47PM

    @TwoKopeiki said:
    Grade-wise, looks high VF to me, as well. @logger7 - are you thinking it's very weakly struck (or rolled, I guess in this case)?

    What criteria are you using to grade the coin?

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭

    LOL, coins like these don't go by grading standards of the U.S. coins.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017 10:12PM

    @logger7 said:

    @TwoKopeiki said:
    Grade-wise, looks high VF to me, as well. @logger7 - are you thinking it's very weakly struck (or rolled, I guess in this case)?

    What criteria are you using to grade the coin? The coin is lustrous with minimal rub. In US coinage weakly struck coins can grade well into MS.

    I hope that you don't plunk down a lot of money on U.S. coins.

    I won't say that I could not see a pin spot or two of luster in the obverse rim denticles and reverse internal beading on this coin, but it isn't prevalent.

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭✭

    Common coins, easily attainable in MS. This is what they look like in GEM.


  • RexfordRexford Posts: 250 ✭✭✭

    VF35 imo

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 10:52PM

    I got the coin today, no way is it Unc. like the seller listed it as and it is bent; probably EF maximum, hard to judge from (enhanced) pictures. Since these were rolled out is it considered ok for them to be bent?

  • bronzematbronzemat Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    I got the coin today, no way is it Unc. like the seller listed it as and it is bent. Since these were rolled out is it considered ok for them to be bent?

    Yes

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    I got the coin today, no way is it Unc. like the seller listed it as and it is bent. Since these were rolled out is it considered ok for them to be bent?

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 10:08PM

    Yes these are all bent. Have a look my sigline re Habsburg Talers - https://taleruniverse.com/the-taler/minting-techniques/

  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 3,273 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 4:52AM

    The original poster's coin is a 15 Kreuzer.

    Here's mine:

    image
    Austria 15 Kreuzer 1664 Leopold
    Silver, 28mm, 5.97gm

    :)

    http://www.brianrxm.com
    The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
    Coins in Movies and on Television
    The San Francisco 1949 Mexico 1898 Peso Restrike


  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 3:05PM

    @TwoKopeiki said: "I'll leave it up to the experts, but it doesn't look authentic to me."

    @Weiss said: "My thoughts as well. I'm not an expert, but it looks very questionable."

    Not to pick on you two but IMHO, you are doing a disservice to me, others, and the OP. I don't think that you can disagree that this is a place for learning. So, you have added nothing and cast doubt on a coin (genuine or counterfeit) right after posting that you are not "experts." NEWS FLASH: There are very few "experts" around here. Some may know errors, some may know patterns, some may know Trade dollars but they don't know everything about everything and they might be the first to tell us that they are still learning their numismatic field of choice and hate to be called an "expert."

    HERE IS WHAT I'M ASKING of you and others. Don't clutter the discussions UNLESS you add something constructive. Questions, opinions, and answers (correct or not) keep this site growing and informative. KEEP POSTING but SAY SOMETHING!!! For example: "I'm not expert but it does not look authentic to me because the coin is bent." See the difference? Then a member will reply that they were made that way. Then another may educate us about the reason they are curved as @BillDugan1959 is doing below.

    @BillDugan1959 said: "When they used roller dies, did the new coin have luster like a traditionally die struck/ or hammered coin? Or was the luster to a greater or lesser extent (I would think that it would not be greater, but had to ask)?"

    Unfortunately, some members here and on other threads ALSO like to push the disagree button on folks without giving a reason. IMO, that is very sad as all of us miss the opportunity to learn - even from our disagreements.

    I should really like to answer the question of luster on these coins but for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who looks at the OP's posts, I will leave that to the experts here.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillDugan1959 said: "Age has no correlation to actual condition and should have no impact on grading standards."

    This is not entirely correct as the older a coin gets the more likely it will have problems yet let's not cloud the question with technicalities. Sorry.

    In theory, a coin can be in its original "as-made" state no matter how old it is. As for grading, it has become very complicated. Coins from a roller press do not look like US coins. Nevertheless, we grade them. They can exhibit semi-frosty "original mint luster" - sometimes even similar to the "original flat-strike luster" we find on Morgan dollars. These coins can also have PL surfaces. How that happens I cannot say as I'm no expert! Nevertheless, when the surface is examined closely, you can detect a change of color and texture due to friction wear. EF is a very high grade for non-US coins. IMO, the OP's coin would grade EF at a TPGS.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 3:56PM

    @Insider2 This thread has been heavily edited by the OP to remove his most egregious mistaken comments. There were many.

    OP edited several of his worst original comments, so I cannot re-read it - but IIRC, he suggested that grading standards should be looser because the coin is old. Rigorously, strictly, not true. If you were looking at coins to buy, then age versus preservation might be something to weigh in your mind before deciding upon a purchase. Grading should be a strict function of the state of preservation now, versus how the coin looked when struck. Age itself is not a factor.

    You are trying to lay down the law when you didn't see some of the earlier malarkey here. The OP stated that the coin shown was uncirculated, or at worst a 'slider' and that you graded these seventeenth century coins just like you might grade Morgan Dollars. All that stuff has been removed from the thread.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 4:56PM

    First, congratulations for accepting my challenge to all posters who "disagree." I'll also thank you for adding to my record total and I thank you for posting your reasons.

    @BillDugan1959 said: "Insider2 This thread has been heavily edited by the OP to remove his most egregious mistaken comments. There were many.

    OP edited several of his worst original comments, so I cannot re-read it - but IIRC, he suggested that grading standards should be looser because the coin is old. Rigorously, strictly, not true."

    This shows me that you may not be very familiar with the way coins are graded by professional TPGS employees." I have no desire to spend much time here as I flagged you for trolling and stalking. All I will say is that grading standards are looser for some coins. This can be due to their age, method of manufacture and value. Period. That's a "little inside Fact" I've learned from professional TPGS graders.

    @BillDugan1959 admonishes: "You are trying to lay down the law when you didn't see some of the earlier malarkey here. The OP stated that the coin shown was uncirculated, or at worst a 'slider' and that you graded these seventeenth century coins just like you might grade Morgan Dollars. All that stuff has been removed from the thread."

    First of all. I have no power to "lay-down-the-law" here. I made some comments based on what I see that IMHO would make CU a better place than it is. Personalities don't belong here. I find that opinion and disagreement without posting a reason are "disagreeable." It adds NOTHING.

    There are several "EDITED POSTS" in this thread - even by you. In spite of the edits, I found some posts disagreeable and posted my reason and a request! I can not change the way some members here act.

    As for grading 17th Century coins, you can call me a dunce and disagree yet I find I grade them about the same as coins from the 13th Century to the 20th Century. :) As you said it is about their "condition of preservation!"

    PS I know who the OP is. I have heard he is not as informed about numismatics as you (??) may be. Nevertheless, he is learning and unfortunately, he has paid the "price" of tuition. He may never reach your (??) level but this place is as good as any to learn. Disagreement is one way to learn when given without being disagreeable or petty.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,430 ✭✭✭✭

    Nevermind...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭✭

    Actually, I have mostly learned not to read Insider2.

    I was trying to consider his comments this morning, but I can stop. I will put him on my ignore list if that would please the moderators.

    97% of my edits are for spelling. Spellchecker is so annoying.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 11:11PM

    I apologize for being an ignoramus on these coins and I appreciate the helpful comments and comparison of similar coins. I went up to a local dealer's yesterday who has a foreign expert, we got out the Krause book which did not have a specific pricing on this one, but had a basic listing for the coin. The seller called it an Unc which it obviously is not.

    Another lesson here is in hand inspection has no substitute especially with substantially bent coins, photography is insufficient. I hope we can enjoy the hobby and not get into squabbles much.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 18,430 ✭✭✭✭

    Just some thoughts... If you have an interest in these or other 17th and early 18th century coins, you might attend some larger coin shows and develop an appreciation for what they look like in hand and their general condition range.

    The coin that started as the subject of this thread is just not a compelling example of the series as they are available in unc and up through gem for reasonable prices.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 6,930 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2017 11:56PM

    Nevermind. Have a nice evening folks.

    8 Reales Madness



    Looking for Mexico 8 Reales 1772-1821 in AU+ condition. PM me!
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2017 12:14AM

    This thread took a bad turn somewhere in the middle, and it could have had a different outcome. I know the series well, coin is curved by nature due to minting technique, circulated, and common. Nothing wrong with that at all. You will judge the next coin's condition in a much different way. I personally like the Hogmouths!

  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭

    @logger7 - I just want to offer my 2 cents of encouragement to plow ahead. Austrian states (and german states for that matter) provide some extraordinary grounds to explore what might be of interest to you. Purchase a few, cut your teeth, and see where it takes you. Make the best decisions you can and learn as you go. I was in your shoes many years as I stared at a Krause in fascination wondering where to start.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks, I like thalers, excellent value for a larger old silver coin.

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 4,405 ✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen so many disagrees in such a short thread.

    If I'm wrong , well .......... feel free to disagree :D :D

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017 11:23PM

    I sent the coin back.

    Improperly described but didn't open a case and have no plan to leave feedback as such as the dealer needs someone who knows foreign or ancients if he is going to sell these.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said: "I've never seen so many disagrees in such a short thread."

    Some members develop a strong dislike for other members. Other times, those who know little about a subject get into a spat and throw "disagrees" around. That may be the case with at least one or two posters here.

    For example, IMO, no intelligent or sane person could possibly disagree with what I just wrote; however, watch what happens and who does it. Nevertheless, a disagree over nothing hurts no one and makes the person who leaves one with out an explanation look, well...look like they know very little." B)

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 4,405 ✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @bronco2078 said: "I've never seen so many disagrees in such a short thread."

    Some members develop a strong dislike for other members. Other times, those who know little about a subject get into a spat and throw "disagrees" around. That may be the case with at least one or two posters here.

    For example, IMO, no intelligent or sane person could possibly disagree with what I just wrote; however, watch what happens and who does it. Nevertheless, a disagree over nothing hurts no one and makes the person who leaves one with out an explanation look, well...look like they know very little." B)

    I disagreed with your post , but only because I got swept away with emotion . If adding another disagree to the thread furthers my own nefarious agenda , well who could disagree with that eh?

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 8,929 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Probably the ugliest coin I own. Wondered about the bendiness. I guess NGC knows they are all bent somewhat.
    :/

    cheapish though.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said: "I've never seen so many disagrees in such a short thread. If I'm wrong,, well .......... feel free to disagree.

    I was going to warn you about asking for "disagrees." We have a lot of jokers around here. Looks like you are one of them.

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