I listed this coins rejection from submission grading wrong

jesbroken

I recently posted my terrible 1st submission results due to my lack of knowledge. I listed this 1913 T1 Buffalo as having been rejected due to cleaning as was the other four. It was not rejected for cleaning, but for wrapping machine damage. Either way it was rejected, but for different reasons.
Thanks
Jim

Insider2

Why not post a magnified image of the damage. Some members have possibly not heard of that one.

ChrisH821

I don't see the damage. Am I missing an obvious issue or is it just really well hidden?

oih82w8

Not seeing the "damage"...that is a beauty of a Type I Buffalo! Did you get your images mixed up?

(Coin) Wrapping Damage normally leaves some form of machined "ring" onto in the surface of the coin...at least the ones that I have seen.

Gluggo

What is wrapping machine damage? TYIA

logger7

Since counting machine damage rarely impairs the aesthetic quality of Buffalos, and occurred at the mint, why do they automatically no grade these?

johnny9434

@Gluggo said:
What is wrapping machine damage? TYIA

yeah, what he said.

koynekwest

Machines that wrap coins into paper rolls have a metal finger that rolls the ends if the wrapper used to sort these into a $2 roll of nickels (or other denominations, with appropriate face value amounts.) This metal finger can make a circular scratch on the coins at each end of the roll as it rotates around to form the rolled edges of the wrapper. This is commonly referred to as "counting machine" damage.

BTW-I don't see any obvious counting machine damage to your coin.

Kkathyl

Thank for clarification, but it does not make you feel much better does it.

Jimnight

I'm not seeing the rings on the coin from the wrapping machine.

Insider2

@logger7 said: "Since counting machine damage rarely impairs the aesthetic quality of Buffalos, and occurred at the mint, why do they automatically no grade these?"

WHAT!!??? Please read the following post. AFAIK, there is a big difference between an error coin due to a production mistake and DAMAGE no matter when or where it occurred.

At the moment, I cannot think of any damage that does not impair the aesthetic quality of a coin to a numismatist. I will grant you that acid, sand blasting, polishing, whizzing, etc can make specimens very attractive to non-numismatists. Therefore, I suspect they might also like wheel damaged coins with grooves carved into their surface. Hopefully, my reply plus the post below should answer you question.

@koynekwest said: "Machines that wrap coins into paper rolls have a metal finger that rolls the ends if the wrapper used to sort these into a $2 roll of nickels (or other denominations, with appropriate face value amounts.) This metal finger can make a circular scratch on the coins at each end of the roll as it rotates around to form the rolled edges of the wrapper. This is commonly referred to as "counting machine" damage."

lkeigwin

BuffaloIronTail

That type of damage comes from either a bank counting machine, or wrapping mechanism that puts coins in rolls. That type of damage occurs after the coins leave the Mint, so it is post mint damage. I don't know for sure what kind of counting apparatus the Mint uses.

When a roll of coins is filled, the end coin could be damaged by the "sealer" mechanism that twists the wrapper.

In addition, some coins could be damaged from being inserted into a vending machine if the slot is too tight. When the handle is twisted, the rolling action leaves a circular mark near the rim.

I bought a beautifully struck 1913-S Type 1 Buff because of the exceptional strike. The pics that the seller provided were taken in a way as to not show any damage.

Got the coin, and there was a circular line through LIBERTY that was "hidden" in the sellers pics by a very knowledgeable slight tilt before the pic was taken.

Check out the pics.........see how the damage magically appears on the coin with my pic. (up near LIBERTY in the Indians' hair)

Hope this helps.

Pete

logger7

@Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "Since counting machine damage rarely impairs the aesthetic quality of Buffalos, and occurred at the mint, why do they automatically no grade these?"

WHAT!!??? Please read the following post. AFAIK, there is a big difference between an error coin due to a production mistake and DAMAGE no matter when or where it occurred.

At the moment, I cannot think of any damage that does not impair the aesthetic quality of a coin to a numismatist. I will grant you that acid, sand blasting, polishing, whizzing, etc can make specimens very attractive to non-numismatists. Therefore, I suspect they might also like wheel damaged coins with grooves carved into their surface. Hopefully, my reply plus the post below should answer you question.

@koynekwest said: "Machines that wrap coins into paper rolls have a metal finger that rolls the ends if the wrapper used to sort these into a $2 roll of nickels (or other denominations, with appropriate face value amounts.) This metal finger can make a circular scratch on the coins at each end of the roll as it rotates around to form the rolled edges of the wrapper. This is commonly referred to as "counting machine" damage."

Most of the coins I've sent in with "counting machine damage" noted have had trivial "damage" usually to the reverse of Buffalos. Suddenly a proud owner of a nice coin has his tail beneath his legs, is hang dog and dispirited. Is this any way for paying customers of the grading services to be treated? I can see it with major damage but the few times I got that on Buffalos was minor. And compare counting machine nicks with the deep hits we have all witnessed on coins graded 60 and above....

koynekwest

How deceptive of that seller to hide that damage. I hope you retuned the coin and left him a nice neg.

koynekwest

That's an excellent illustration of this form of damage, lkeigwin.

jesbroken

I received the returned submission this morning and just before leaving for the Dr's office I made this post. Yes, I did post the wrong picture, The coins are quite similar in hand with the one I posted the beautiful pic by CrazyHoundDog which had been cleaned per PCGS instead of the one I had no intention of sending in as I only needed one. Unfortunately, it was the coin with wrapping machine damage, which I had only heard the term and never truly understood the method of damage.
Here are the two coins with my pics(sorry Joe) and they are similar than with Joes pic. My bad. But still hopefully this post will educate those who did not know about this type of damage. As you can plainly see, the damage from the counting wheel is thru the United States on the reverse of the 1st one. Only one I have ever seen and it had to be mine.lol
Thanks to all who took the time to view the post and reply.
Jim

kwags24

My ignorance when were counting machines first used

grip

I'm not seeing it .Maybe because your pictures are to dark?

jesbroken

Look at the top of the 1st buff's reverse and you will see the mark through the top of United States from the process.
Jim

Jimnight

The new pics show the damage from the wrapping machine. Thanks for posting them.

Type2

When they say DAMAGE it can be more then Scratches, "Varnish", other stuff. They look like they have Varnish.

jesbroken

PCGS actually stated what the damage was from
Jim

ricko

The 'damage' is clear in the new pictures....thanks for the follow up clarification. Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

@logger7 said:

@Insider2 said:
@logger7 said: "Since counting machine damage rarely impairs the aesthetic quality of Buffalos, and occurred at the mint, why do they automatically no grade these?"

WHAT!!??? Please read the following post. AFAIK, there is a big difference between an error coin due to a production mistake and DAMAGE no matter when or where it occurred.

At the moment, I cannot think of any damage that does not impair the aesthetic quality of a coin to a numismatist. I will grant you that acid, sand blasting, polishing, whizzing, etc can make specimens very attractive to non-numismatists. Therefore, I suspect they might also like wheel damaged coins with grooves carved into their surface. Hopefully, my reply plus the post below should answer you question.

@koynekwest said: "Machines that wrap coins into paper rolls have a metal finger that rolls the ends if the wrapper used to sort these into a $2 roll of nickels (or other denominations, with appropriate face value amounts.) This metal finger can make a circular scratch on the coins at each end of the roll as it rotates around to form the rolled edges of the wrapper. This is commonly referred to as "counting machine" damage."

Most of the coins I've sent in with "counting machine damage" noted have had trivial "damage" usually to the reverse of Buffalos. Suddenly a proud owner of a nice coin has his tail beneath his legs, is hang dog and dispirited. Is this any way for paying customers of the grading services to be treated? I can see it with major damage but the few times I got that on Buffalos was minor. And compare counting machine nicks with the deep hits we have all witnessed on coins graded 60 and above....

"Bag marks" occur from the coins rattling together. I agree, they can sometimes be severe and unattractive. But they aren't due to external mechanical damage like "wrapping machine damage".

It's also worth noting that the aesthetic value of a coin is different from the technical grade. You can have a very "pretty" coin no-grade for specific issues (cleaning, mechanical marks, etc.) that don't significantly detract from the "prettiness" but that aren't allowed in the current market.

[Side Bar: A 19th century PCGS would have slabbed dipped or even lightly polished silver coins. An early 20th century PCGS would probably have slabbed lacquered coins. A mid 21st century PCGS...???]

OldIndianNutKase

@jesbroken said:
Look at the top of the 1st buff's reverse and you will see the mark through the top of United States from the process.
Jim

Thanks for sharing this Jim. I learn a lot on this forum, and most of the time it is something like this that I had never heard of. And thanks also to Lance for the very descriptive pic on a Lincoln roll.

OINK

logger7

And here is one that was called machine counting damage on a Morgan dollar no less: https://i.imgur.com/C9RJLv9.jpg?1 https://i.imgur.com/pZ2npP1.jpg?1