AU58 Walker
logger7
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I bought this from a knowledgeable dealer as an MS62, any clarity on why it isn't Unc.? Thanks.
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logger7
Posts: 8,831 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Quite frankly, because the dealer was selling it.
I bet if you had it to sell, the dealer would say nothing like "I'll pay you ms62 money for it".
But also, to the dealer's credit, I've stated before that I believe there is very little difference between an au58 and an ms62.
Anyone that says there is a distinct, notable difference between these grades has been living a very secluded life immersed in grading textbooks and not in the day to day buying and selling market.
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Hard to tell
AU58 and MS 61 or 62 look so close?
The lower portion on the obverse where the date is looks proof. I bet this coin looks awesome in hand when rotated. Based on the images, I see no signs of wear. If I had the coin in person, I would inspect the high points of the coin for slight discoloration with a loop.
I see what looks to be some light rub down the center skirts.
I have no doubt that coins like this have made it into MS slabs before.
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Selling to a dealer AU53, buying from a dealer MS63, that's the way dealers have been in my experience.
Looks as nice as many slabbed 37-D's I have seen in MS holders/
There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg... and the left leg of the Eagle... this could be the photography.... but that appears to be the limiting factors.... you could crack and resubmit.... Cheers, RickO
Coin looks 62 or 58 depending on the day. I think arguments could be made for both grades. There is very slight friction on the the leg/skirt, but these get into 62 holders all the time.
The 58s I've had looked nothing like a 62.
Looks like they can grade just well enough to be dangerous!
Really hard to tell from the picture, it appears to be a scan. Looks to be well struck!
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@logger7
IMO, you have asked an excellent question and opened the "can of worms" that is discussed in every grading seminar I've been in. The image you posted is also first class and should allow any poster to understand the comments everyone made in this thread before me. What you have shown is the SUBJECTIVITY of grading. Baring an occasional mistake, all of us - including the major TPGS's have personal and company standards. That standard can be wide or thin at the AU/Unc line.
The OP's coin is correctly graded as an AU-58. In this case, it is a 100% "technical" grade that cannot be disputed. As pointed out by these posters and confirmed by PCGS:
@Ricko said: "There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg."
@Walkerfan said: "I see what looks to be some light rub down the center skirts. I have no doubt that coins like this have made it into MS slabs before."
Then Walkerfan and @zas107 went further to explain that coins like this beauty are bought and sold all day long as MS:
@zas107 said: "Coin looks 62 or 58 depending on the day. I think arguments could be made for both grades. There is very slight friction on the the leg/skirt, but these get into 62 holders all the time."
Question posted and question answered extremely well. Look at the leg of "Liberty." If you cannot see a change of color down the leg... EDIT
THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO SEE IT! Then you can make a personal judgment as to how much this loss of original surface luster due to friction bothers you. Does it make the coin AU in your eyes? Or is this amount of "Cabinet Friction" (choke, choke...
acceptable to you on an MS Walker.
@DoubleEagle59 said: "I've stated before that I believe there is very little difference between an au58 and an ms62. Anyone that says there is a distinct, notable difference between these grades has been living a very secluded life immersed in grading textbooks and not in the day to day buying and selling market."
I don't agree entirely with this post although it probably is made by a successful coin dealer. While on a commercial level, the AU-58 and MS grades are often merged either on purpose or out of ignorance, I believe that any person with a good eye for detail who is not color blind CAN EASILY DISTINGUISH an AU coin from one that is MS without leading a secluded life immersed in grading texts. Furthermore, you do not need to buy or sell coins to learn the difference. I've seen it in grading classes. From what I see in the marketplace (probably none of you folks - right), the vast majority of coin dealers have spent very little time becoming educated." The label is all that counts; but if you don't know the difference, you may be paying MS prices for AU coins.
A true 'liner'....very nice coin.
I will also add there appears to be rub on the eagle's central neck feather (this area RARELY has strike problems, and is a dependable area to inspect.
Also I don't see the luster bands in the right obv field that you get nice MS coins.
Still a very desirable coin, and one that used to be very elusive in AU. Even uncs used to be scarce, until a group of rolls came on the market some years ago.
Thanks for the feeback and sharp perceptions; some light friction or rub as observed but didn't look like it had seen any circulation, so I'm not sure what caused that.
There are two basic causes for loss of the original mint luster on the high parts of a coin. One is abrasive friction. It changes the color (makes the surface dull) of the coin. The other is... ???
I'm going to give you some time to think about it based on what you have seen on coins. Someone else may answer right away. I've found that when I think about things I see on coin's it all makes sense (except on very rare occasions).
If no one answers, I will tonight. This way, there may be more than two things and we both will learn something new that we never thought of!
PS Thanks for your kind comments in the PM! I had a very good teacher! Glad you did not post here as I would lose my reputation as a Troll.
Long ago when I was still a rookie I bought à 1886 morgan that advertized as à ms66. When I received it it was AU 58.
Before certification yes the op coin would be sold as choice unc or 63. Everyone yelled rip off that knew what they were doing. So the services started putting 58 on them.
Now many times the services put these sliders in unc holders. People get used to this and when they see a true slider such as this they ask why. I'll stick to my dyed in the wool standards and stay safe. If this were a bust half with a touch of rub like this who knows where it would sit.
It's certainly a slider, but I would see it as an AU-58+ before an AU-58. The rub is very light and confined to a very small area, especially the reverse. I bet if the amount of rub on the reverse and obverse were switched, it would be in an MS-63 holder right now.
An AU58 because of the rub is a better grade then a MS62 IMHO. You would see more marks and flaws on the coin to grade MS62 and you can put on what is rubbed off. If a crackout why not look to get 63-64
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Worth more as a AU58+ - send in for reconsideration and specify no higher grade.
Nice coin, and the very reason why I love 58 graded coins! FWIW, this also works the other way from a collector's perspective... I purchased a 3CN from a reputable dealer at a Baltimore show some years ago for 58 money, ultimately I sold it for 62 money and that person had it slabbed at 63... go figure.
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@stman said: "If this were a bust half with a touch of rub like this who knows where it would sit."
IMO, If a Bust half were in that condition it would probably be a "top pop" for the date and graded MS-67!
I've seen a lot of AU58 coins which appear to be MS64 with some minor rub.
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Golly, aren't we tired of the "is it either AU58 OR MS62" debate?
Average the two grades and you arrive at an appropriate grade level for such a coin: 60
But that particular number has such a stigma, most think of it as an ugly banged up coin with no wear, that no one uses it.
Nice looking coin, the "Rub" is likely roll/stacking friction, and collector handling ("cabinet") friction, as there is very nice field luster.
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I have a ms63 coin that is actually a 65 with too many marks, or not enough luster or..........
I ended up selling it for $175 after researching what other 58s had sold for, that is the limitation of the current grading price sheet correlation; a step function generally, not much of a jump unless the plastic clues the marketplace into added specialness.
@Baley said: "Golly, aren't we tired of the "is it either AU58 OR MS62" debate?"
NO, IMO, the AU/MS line is important. Many folks don't like MS-62 coins (especially gold) with an AU-55 amount of friction! Those folks who can tell the difference correctly can make an INFORMED PERSONAL DECISION on a coin's grade whether it is raw or slabbed.
@Bailey continues: "Average the two grades and you arrive at an appropriate grade level for such a coin: 60"
IMO that's as silly as net grading! LOL, the coin is not MS-60 and will never be graded MS-60 by any informed dealer/collector. In my grading guide, MS-60 coins MAY HAVE a lot of contact marks, hairlines, poor luster and are not too appealing. See, you knew that by writing this: "But that particular number has such a stigma, most think of it as an ugly banged up coin with no wear, that no one uses it."
@Bailey ends with something I can almost agree with: "Nice looking coin, the "Rub" is likely roll/stacking friction, and collector handling ("cabinet") friction, as there is very nice field luster."
In class, students are taught what "stacking rub" looks like. I don't recall that it looks like this.
so now collector handling is cabinet friction? OY VEY
@stman said: "So now collector handling is cabinet friction? OY VEY"
crickets
LOL.