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1909-S/S $10 Indian. Unlisted?

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

Breen#7108 lists a 1909-S/S $10 Indian. The first "S" was punched to the right of the strong mint mark. There is one imaged in an ANACS slab on the ToughCoins web site.

A friend sent me an image of a different 1909-S/S $10 Indian. Anyone have another? The coin is polished. :(

Comments

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a hit to me.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Frank! Did you enter my new contest ?

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The top coin isn't an RPM imo.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks. Both images are the same coin. I see notching at the base and outline on the curve. There is even a hint of the outer curve from different punch (triple punch?). I have found that when a date has one RPM, there is often another. I think it is an RPM.

    Nevertheless, two No votes so far and IMO YOUR opinion counts for 10 NO votes!

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Didn't realize that -

    It looks like it's an RPM, west of the right
    curve of the S. It's strange that the top
    photo doesn't show that. A very small thin line
    does show in the top photo, but that's why
    I thought it was a diff. coin.

    It could also be metal flow - as shown in the
    surrounding areas, but I'd go with RPM.

    The outer curve 'line' could be damage,
    like the bottom of the serif.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Thanks Frank! Did you enter my new contest ?

    I did!

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 12:20PM

    Here are two of the three repunched mintmark 1909-S varieties identified so far. I do not yet have a good photo of the 3rd RPM. (This is part of research for a forthcoming book on the Saint-Gaudens Eagles 1907-1933.)

    RPM variety 1 (multiple die states); most commonly seen RPM for 1909-S. This might actually be triple punched since the curve and right, and serif at left cannot have come from the same S punch:

    RPM variety 2:

    There are also three distinctly different S punches.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 12:24PM

    Thanks, Roger...knowledge is power! I just told him to send it off for a generic S/S attribution until the RPM get's assigned a # in print.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 12:29PM

    This is the basic S mintmark style and position of 1909:

    Also known in a slightly lower location in relation to the arrow head. (The curve to lower right appears to be superficial damage and not part of another S.)

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    This is the basic S mintmark style of 1909:

    Not to be fussy but I see what looks like the crescent of another "S" punch coming from the right of the lower loop!

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 12:45PM

    I added the "superficial damage" to my post and it probably crossed paths with insider2's comment. However, it raises a good point and highlights why research takes time to do, and that varieties must be verified on multiple examples. On this photo, the coin will get additional scrutiny along with others having the same MM style. We need at least 2 specimens with identical features. Maybe it IS a RPM, and I was wrong about the damage -- that's OK if we catch this stuff early. [The project has been in the works for 2+ years so far.]

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting. So I guess only the minor coinage got the mintmark with the flaw in the upper curve?

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 12:48PM

    NOT True. If I remember the $5 & $20 have the usual "1909-S" punch with notch at top. :) I'm a little busy but I'll check.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's what I thought, Insider...........no need to rush.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Answered my own question.....

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2017 1:17PM

    1909-S Double Eagle with repunched mintmark. The letter form is similar to that on the Eagle.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,406 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One would have thought that sinking a mint mark into a die for gold coinage would have entailed a little bit more "care".

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 4:08AM

    deleted .... wrong series :o

    @BuffaloIronTail said:
    One would have thought that sinking a mint mark into a die for gold coinage would have entailed a little bit more "care".

    Pete

    I could easily imagine the aggravation of the die-sinker, while muttering "Again? Effin' again again!!! :( " contributing somewhat to a lack of diligence >:)

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dies were "dies" and people were "people." Mistakes were inevitable.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...and beer and pizza Friday's are not a new "perk." Perhaps beer and sausage back then?

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mint marks sure seem to get a lot of 'repunch' action.... and not a lot of diligence when it came to 'cleaning up' the surface. Cheers, RickO

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 10:29AM

    By the time of Saint-Gaudens eagles, punching a mintmark was almost the only manual part of die making. They had little alignment jigs, but a guy with the punch and a 2-1/2 lb hammer working on a small die.

    I wonder how many dies were ruined?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll bet not many because some misplaced mint marks and RPM are way off.

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