VAM experts school me on 1888-0 scarface PCGS MS62 Vam 1B - Die Stage 10

roadrunner

I know generally that this variety is quite scarce in mint state grades. What caught my eye on this one was seemingly a fully wholesome, original coin with decent luster and eye appeal. The reverse toning almost reminds me of commemorative "tab" toning. Coin looks cleaner than a typical MS62. Maybe netted a bit for the weak strike (and die state)? Seems nice for a MS62 coin. CAC liked it too (CAC shows 15 in MS62 with 6 higher, none above 64). This must be tough to find MS + fully original/wholesome + stickered. I always thought that nearly all of these came in the later die state with a full crack across the face. But maybe not. Are there early die states that are barely recognizable with minimal die cracking? I never ran across one of these in the wild. But also never looked for it either.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/auctions/3-8OPWS?view=list&sort=lot_number&is_mixed_lot=sometimes&limit=36&jump_to_lot=3319

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/195152/1888-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Scar-Face-PCGS-MS-62

A MS62 from GC back in 2014....sort of scuffy. But, better struck on reverse. And a late die state.

Kyle

The slab photos are probably more accurate to what the coin will look like in hand; looks like a typical 62 in my opinion. Surprisingly the majority of these are in mint state grades: of the sixty-two PCGS has graded, only two are circulated (an XF-40 and AU-50). NGC has graded 35, all of which are mintstate.

When comparing to some TrueView images on CoinFacts, there are a couple other weakly struck coins of this variety. Some of which you can't even see the "scar" across the cheek.

Other TrueView Images

roadrunner

Thanks Kyle. I can see that only some of the CoinFacts coins have the crack extended all the way into Liberty's (neck) lower hair curls. Wasn't aware so many were mint state. Had always assumed most were circulated. That could be the case if most of them were not easily recognized due to earlier die states with no cheek cracking. Must be a fairly wide range in price from terminal die state to very early die state.

roadrunner

Someone sent me this link on Vam 1B and scar face die progression. Neat article from 2013.

https://www.nationalsilverdollarroundtable.org/the-amazing-scarface-progression-–-1888-o-vam-1b/

Now I understand the difference between stages 1 to 10. Had no idea stage 1 was one of the rarest....even if not very impressive. Stage 10 shows the longest die crack and a tiny blob of metal on edge of the nose.

Kyle

That's interesting, I hadn't read that before. Thanks for sharing!

I guess it makes sense that stage 1 is the rarest, given that it's not nearly as noticeable as the later stages.

messydesk

The 88-O Scarface typically comes in MS62. It has good luster, albeit a bit strange due to the deformation and breaking of the obverse die. Strike is never that good, which is typical for 88-O, but exacerbated by the die. The article that Ash did for the NSDR was from when he first broke down the 10 stages of the die break. Since then, the values have dropped a bit, especially for the earlier stages. There has also been a die stage discovered that has no crack at all on the obverse, but has been tied to the Scarface by other markers such as die polishing lines. It is called VAM 1B0, and is also referred to as stage H0. There is a long die scratch through AMERICA on the reverse that makes it possible to identify this one without a microscope.

roadrunner

Thanks Messydesk. Interesting that both the Hot Lips and Scarface appear on this same dated/mm Morgan.

messydesk

@roadrunner said:
Thanks Messydesk. Interesting that both the Hot Lips and Scarface appear on this same dated/mm Morgan.

Yeah, quite the coincidence. It's also interesting the Scarface is typically MS62, the Hot Lips is typically VF. Only a handful of MS Hot Lips are in the pops, and that may include crackouts, but the population of circulated Scarfaces is even lower.

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roadrunner

@afford said:
Could it be the nearest because no one can spot it? Also rarest doesn't necessarily mean the most valuable price wise. If you can't see it then I ain't at all interested. I am only interested in die marriages that are cool (blatant/noticeable) and ignore everything else.

Fortunately, a large percentage of these have the fully visible die crack across the face. I don't know if the TPG's attribute this variety if it isn't showing a visible die crack across Liberty's face. This is certainly a "cool" die variety. Cool enough that I've never run into one unattributed.

mbogoman

@roadrunner said:

@afford said:
Could it be the nearest because no one can spot it? Also rarest doesn't necessarily mean the most valuable price wise. If you can't see it then I ain't at all interested. I am only interested in die marriages that are cool (blatant/noticeable) and ignore everything else.

Fortunately, a large percentage of these have the fully visible die crack across the face. I don't know if the TPG's attribute this variety if it isn't showing a visible die crack across Liberty's face. This is certainly a "cool" die variety. Cool enough that I've never run into one unattributed.

Yes, they will attribute it all the way. PCGS and NGC designate anything below an H7 as "Early Die State" (1B1 and 1B2), while ANACS will assign die state numbers from H1 thru H10.

FWIW - they are out there. I've picked one H8 and several H6 and H5 off Ebay over the past few years. I ignore anything below H5 as they aren't really in demand (i.e. not enough premium to make it worthwhile)

ricko

@roadrunner ....Thanks for the link... shows the progression very well.... Cheers, RickO

CascadeChris

Hey @messydesk. Don't you find all this talk about Scarfaces during October a bit funny. I just flipped my calender. Are you psychic?